The spread of Christianity

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
You also mention a tragedy. I'd be interested in that as well and how it cemented your beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen my real father since I was 4 years old. He treated my mother in a cruel fashion and she fortunately got married to a good guy when I was 4. This all happened in a small town in Mississippi where I was born. After her remarriage, we moved to New York due to his career. My grandparents lived in Mississippi, however, and they missed me terribly. As such, they would often send plane tickets to me so that I could fly down by myself to see them. Although my stepfather was a great person, I loved my grandfather like he was my father. As a result, I spent every summer with him riding the roads (he was a regional director and traveled around the southeast/midwest). He was so good to me that it would absolutely make me want to throw up when I told him a lie to cover up something that I had done. We went golfing together a couple of times a week and went to the lake every Sunday. He took me in on many of his business appointments and, as a result, I learned a lot about business at a very young age. He never chastised me for asking too many questions. He always tried to answer them fully. Most of all, we had fun together. He took me with him on business trips to Washington, Reno, San Antonio, Orlando and other places. I hated to disappoint him. As you can see, it is a blessing for a child to have a figure like that in his life when he is growing up. My family eventually moved back to Mississippi and I ended up finishing jr. high and high school there. In the summer prior to my senior year, he went in for a rather routine outpatient surgery. I drove him up there and waited on him. The procedure was supposed to be so routine that noone else in the family was there. The doctor called me in and told me that he had stomach cancer. He lasted 2 more months, dying 2 days before my 17th birthday. He died an agonizing, painful, terrible death. I watched him starve to death in such a way that I would feel like vomiting when I left the hospital. I immediately wondered why God had taken him from me at such a young age, so soon. He was gone before he could see me get a high school or college degree, he was gone before prom, he was gone before so many things that I would have loved to "give back" to him.

Not long after came the straw that broke the camel's back. I lost a girlfriend that I thought was my dream girl. At this point, I was face-to-face with the ugly reality of the world. This is no movie, no fairy tale existence. People die when you least expect it. The boy doesn't always get the girl. Your life might contain excruciating pain. There were no more romantic visions or dreams of being president. I was just there, merely existing. Dreams die hard, of course, and, as a result, I became very angry with God. I had been fairly agnostic for most of my life. I went in search of inner peace. I began looking into the various belief systems and began reading the New Testamant of the Bible. The gospels completely changed my ideas about Christ. He accepted prostitutes, tax collectors, and all sorts of sinners. The gospels depict people in great pain (lepers, widows, outcasts, etc.) and Christ accepted them all. The text spoke to me as if it weren't on paper at all...as if it was actually real. As I read it, I was immediately believing the gospels. I decided to become a Christian during that time and I was immediately very happy. I certainly was intelligent enough at the time to come up with a scientific explanation or possibility for all that happened. I believed that the resurrection and the miracles were actually real. I was stunned myself that I actually believed it. If one believes that the resurrection and the miracles of Christ are real, one can only conclude that Jesus was God incarnate...and so I was a Christian.

[ QUOTE ]
Your last 3 questions is how I became an agnositc. In the end, I just couldn't get past these issues or leave them unreconciled.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are questions that always did bother me. I wondered about them for some time and still do. I did think about some accounts of near-death experiences while searching for answers in a Christian bookstore. Now, near and post-death accounts are interesting to me. These were all people who were clinically dead for a period of a few minutes. Most of them had the usual "lived my live backwards and felt every emotion and saw the light." Scientists will tell you that this just the process of the brain shutting down. I say "maybe" to this because there is no real proof of either way.

The one that interested me the most, however, was the guy that never saw the light. He was a motorcycle gang member and was a theif, druggie, and just a bad person. He had gotten in an accident and he was brought to the hospital. He quit breathing and he went into cardiac arrest. I believe he was "gone" for something like 5 minutes.

He never saw a light. He went into darkness and, although he could not see, he was being tortured and he was terrified. He cried out for Jesus. Immediately he was plunged into light and he was standing beside Jesus. He began weeping. Jesus only talked to him about the Golden Rule and asked him if he understood. Jesus said, "That's good. Now go live it." He woke up in the hospital a changed man. He went from a gang member to a church minister in a night. I watched him on a television program give his account and it certainly looked as if he believed the story he was telling. Not only that, if he was lying, he was going to extraordinary lengths to conceal it.

Obviously, science can't prove or disprove this man. If this were true, however, it could mean that people can get second chances. If true, it means that God does not immediately damn someone at their death even if they've gone to hell. It also struck me that the Bible doesn't really contradict this possibility. It also made me think that it is, in fact, possible that everyone gets a choice, whether in this life or not. After all, if this guy went to hell and was saved, why not others. Rejection of Christ condemns people to hell according to the Bible. It doesn't specifically say that you must accept Christ prior to your death...it has just always been implied. So maybe, that person goes to hell and immediately figures out that this is the wrong place and that person decides he's "not too proud to beg." Maybe he's not too late after all.

Even if this is not an explanation, it opens the mind up to possibilities that there may be alternate paths that actually involve Jesus. It also opens up the possibility that although rejection of Christ is equivalent to eternal damnation, that you maintain free will past the grave to make your decision.

Granted, it's a choice but its like the game show analogy in the other hand...a million bucks behind Door #1 and a bunch of crap behind Door #2. For most people, its an easy decision. Remember, however, that to make such a decision with sincerity still requires humility and faith. Who knows, if that is true, then hell would make total sense...it would show one the opposite of God in all its fury. And, seriously, how much more would one love God if he got snatched out of the bowels of hell and given a second chance? Most people (souls) would immediately understand. In that case, eternal damnation would always be your choice...your choice to end at any time.

[Lestat]

Whaddid I do?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Whaddid I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

arrrghhh! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Lestat]

I'm still not sure what's frustrating you.

I think the distinction is an important one. It is my understanding that an atheist BELIEVES there is NO God. Period.

An agnositic allow for the possibility. I don't see how that's insignificant.

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
Mempho,

I'll take a stab at it:

1) How could a loving God sentence someone to eternal damnation?

Free will. This is very easy to see if we take the analogy that “eternal damnation” is simply the absence of God. Is that a bad thing? If it is, how does that differ than simply believing that is how it is for everyone anyway - i.e., if no God?

2) If an Omnipotent God created the heavens and the earth and the angels, then he created Lucifer. If he created Lucifer, is evil in the world his fault? If so, how could he be all loving?

Rumor is that God created Lucifer as a good angel. Lucifer chose to go on his own - chose not God. God did not create him evil.

3) If Christianity is the only way, do Muslims have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ? If not, can they be sentenced to hell? If the answer is yes, how is this fair and just?

See answer to #1.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

RJT,

This tends to be the apolgist line on these things as I'm sure you'll know. The issue I have is twofold. First, for someones free will to matter means that they would have had to have the information availible to know that there was another path...another choice. Do you think the majority of Muslims, for instance, know this information?

Secondly, while I do hear about some people in regions such as the Middle East converting to Christianity, I don't hear about vast majoritys doing this because its not true. Do you think its possible that we have lots of Christians running around in the Middle East that pretend that their not Christians out of fear? If not, then would you say that these populations are at an unfair disadvantage because society has taught them something that is false?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not sure what's frustrating you.

I think the distinction is an important one. It is my understanding that an atheist BELIEVES there is NO God. Period.

An agnositic allow for the possibility. I don't see how that's insignificant.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its just not what athiesm means to everyone. Its not what Wiki says it means (or any other source as far as I know). It is what many think it means. I used to think thats what it meant.

When so many disagree its just confusing.

Did you get as far as the agnostic theist who believe in god?

chez

[ QUOTE ]
The Church was founded in the same lifetime as those who experienced the resurrection. If it didn't happen and was all a myth, it would not have caught on so quickly. The fact that it was made up would have been obvious.


[/ QUOTE ]

The Gospels were written AFTER Paul founded the Church, and probably after anyone alive during Jesus' time was dead. The mythos (the stories) were already there from previous myths. A "god-man" was not a novel idea.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> The atheist, understandably, simply says since we don’t know, I’ll wait for more information. </font>

You are describing an agnositc here. Atheists actually have more in common with theists in that they both have come to form a belief about God. The only difference is that the atheist believes there is no God, while the theists believe there is.

[/ QUOTE ]


permission to scream?

[/ QUOTE ]


AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! (yes)

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Church was founded in the same lifetime as those who experienced the resurrection. If it didn't happen and was all a myth, it would not have caught on so quickly. The fact that it was made up would have been obvious.


[/ QUOTE ]

The Gospels were written AFTER Paul founded the Church, and probably after anyone alive during Jesus' time was dead. The mythos (the stories) were already there from previous myths. A "god-man" was not a novel idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check your history.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not sure what's frustrating you.

I think the distinction is an important one. It is my understanding that an atheist BELIEVES there is NO God. Period.

An agnositic allow for the possibility. I don't see how that's insignificant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stat,

chez is just saying this atheist/agnostic thing has already been discussed. I think you came aboard afterwards. I am not really sure that I agree with the definitions as we talked about. But, I let it go and figured atheists/agnostics can define themselves. So, basically just read the link. Either way, he is saying - let's not hijack the thread.

RJT