Why are poker players (and in particular these forums) so hostile?

[jason_t]

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Following aqnother poster around simply to flame him is trolling.

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Please take your own advice.

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Again,just to be VERY clear, Tilt's started getting flaimed when he, out of the blue, started insulting sfer.

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Tilts was flamed long before that. As early as three weeks ago private joker complained about Tilts over AIM to me and DMBFan suggested that Tilts is The-Matador.

[fnord_too]

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People who are here to learn get insulted constantly, and every little mistake new posters make is not just immediately pounced upon, but brought up again and again.

Non-strategy related posts tend to be flame fests where everyone competes to be the cleverest, and I have rarely seen a message board where so many people seem to hate one another. The OOT forum is just embarrassing, politics is similar, and WPT is dreadful.


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I can't read this whole thread, so this has probably been pointed out, but the forums you mention as egregious examples of hostility are not the forums people go to to learn.

I came to these boards as a beginner and have had very positive response to my questions. WPT, I can see where you might expect that to be a cordial forum. OOT, that is a bit of a stretch, but poker player have lives, too and that could be where they go to chat reasonably about off topic subjects. But anyone who has witnessed political discussions has got to realize those are more often than not just flame fests regardless of the medium.

I only rarely drop by the beginner and SS forums, but I know a lot of really good players frequent those boards to help out new players with important concepts. On the other strategy boards, I see a lot of great advice and good discussion. Sometimes it gets non productive, but really, there are a lot of posters who you see starting off as rank beginners and evolving into superior players over the course of a year or two thanks in part to their interaction with these forums.

Perhaps I just focus on the positive by nature, but really I don't see this hostile environment you describe. The couple times early on when I was chastised for posting a disguised bad beat, I definitely deserved it. Also, the fact that I didn't even realize at the time I was posting a disguised bad beat was horrible on my part, and getting railed for it certainly made me aware of a weakness in my attitude. (Denial is a hell of a bad trait to have as a poker player.)

One thing I have seen is people who take criticism personally. Often people take offense to the suggestion that they may not be correct. Ego is the mother of denial.


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People who are here to learn get insulted constantly, and every little mistake new posters make is not just immediately pounced upon, but brought up again and again. People actually look back through other poster's posts just to find things to ridicule them with here. This seems nuts to me. There is absolutely no sense of poker community, save for a few posters

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Of course mistakes are pointed out, but the insult, as I suggested above, is more often infered than intended. Also, mistakes get pointed out multiple times because it is a good practice to comment on a hand before reading the results or what others think. A lot of posters do this. So if you post a hand with a really bad mistake, expect a lot of people to point it out. I would not view that as a bad thing; it should make it quite clear that you had a major error in reasoning that could be costing you a lot of expectation.

Maybe you just see what you look for. I look for good advice and I see a lot of it. I probably just skip posts that I recognize as worthless, and I don't get insulted by what people type on a public message board.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I'm glad I had not seen that post above mine before replying. I am not sure what I would have said other than that such remarks have no place here or on any forum, including RGP.

You're right that I spend little time on other forums, and I don't know what happens on them. I do know that I've made some friends here, and I value their friendships. I have also learned a lot. As I've said many times, without this forum I would have run out of ideas for my articles long ago.

I'm saddened by this news. In my next book, "Poker Psychology Essays," I repeatedly urge people to come to our forums. I see them as a community which is devoted to helping all of us to play and live better. I think that feedback from others is essential for growth as both a player and a person.

If that feedback is not seen as a sincere attempt to help, most people -- including me -- will not accept it. Conversely, if we believe someone is genuinely trying to help us, we can accept quite harsh criticisms.

For example, my next article in our Internet Magazine is titled, "Should you quit your day job?" It is based on the very legitimate criticisms that posters have made about the appendix to POP, "Don't quit your day job."

I feel that many of those criticisms were both valid and made with good intentions. Because I feel that way, I admit that my original position does not match today's realities.

If I thought people were just attacking me personally, I doubt that I would have been so open-minded about their criticisms.

I hope that others read this message and take it seriously. We have something really worthwhile here. I don't know of any place that we can get so much useful information. Let's not destroy it for the temporary pleasure of putting down others.

Regards,

Al

[Entity]

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I'm glad I had not seen that post above mine before replying. I am not sure what I would have said other than that such remarks have no place here or on any forum, including RGP.

You're right that I spend little time on other forums, and I don't know what happens on them. I do know that I've made some friends here, and I value their friendships. I have also learned a lot. As I've said many times, without this forum I would have run out of ideas for my articles long ago.

I'm saddened by this news. In my next book, "Poker Psychology Essays," I repeatedly urge people to come to our forums. I see them as a community which is devoted to helping all of us to play and live better. I think that feedback from others is essential for growth as both a player and a person.

If that feedback is not seen as a sincere attempt to help, most people -- including me -- will not accept it. Conversely, if we believe someone is genuinely trying to help us, we can accept quite harsh criticisms.

For example, my next article in our Internet Magazine is titled, "Should you quit your day job?" It is based on the very legitimate criticisms that posters have made about the appendix to POP, "Don't quit your day job."

I feel that many of those criticisms were both valid and made with good intentions. Because I feel that way, I admit that my original position does not match today's realities.

If I thought people were just attacking me personally, I doubt that I would have been so open-minded about their criticisms.

I hope that others read this message and take it seriously. We have something really worthwhile here. I don't know of any place that we can get so much useful information. Let's not destroy it for the temporary pleasure of putting down others.

Regards,

Al

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Hey Al,

While I think a considerable amount of immaturity has been shown in dealing with this poster, you should probably be made aware that quite a few members of the forum are convinced -- with good reason -- that Tilts is a recurring troll to the forum, based on analysis of his posts, style, and spelling (amongst other, less quantifiable, reasons). He has been banned.

Many posters here, such as myself, have largely had great experiences on the forum, and continue to do so. Posters such as this have a tendency to get back from the forum what they contribute, which is needless antagonism.

This, of course, is all MHO.

Rob

[intheflatfield]

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Quote:
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People who are here to learn get insulted constantly, and every little mistake new posters make is not just immediately pounced upon, but brought up again and again.

Non-strategy related posts tend to be flame fests where everyone competes to be the cleverest, and I have rarely seen a message board where so many people seem to hate one another. The OOT forum is just embarrassing, politics is similar, and WPT is dreadful.



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I can't read this whole thread, so this has probably been pointed out, but the forums you mention as egregious examples of hostility are not the forums people go to to learn.

I came to these boards as a beginner and have had very positive response to my questions. WPT, I can see where you might expect that to be a cordial forum. OOT, that is a bit of a stretch, but poker player have lives, too and that could be where they go to chat reasonably about off topic subjects. But anyone who has witnessed political discussions has got to realize those are more often than not just flame fests regardless of the medium.

I only rarely drop by the beginner and SS forums, but I know a lot of really good players frequent those boards to help out new players with important concepts. On the other strategy boards, I see a lot of great advice and good discussion. Sometimes it gets non productive, but really, there are a lot of posters who you see starting off as rank beginners and evolving into superior players over the course of a year or two thanks in part to their interaction with these forums.

Perhaps I just focus on the positive by nature, but really I don't see this hostile environment you describe. The couple times early on when I was chastised for posting a disguised bad beat, I definitely deserved it. Also, the fact that I didn't even realize at the time I was posting a disguised bad beat was horrible on my part, and getting railed for it certainly made me aware of a weakness in my attitude. (Denial is a hell of a bad trait to have as a poker player.)

One thing I have seen is people who take criticism personally. Often people take offense to the suggestion that they may not be correct. Ego is the mother of denial.



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People who are here to learn get insulted constantly, and every little mistake new posters make is not just immediately pounced upon, but brought up again and again. People actually look back through other poster's posts just to find things to ridicule them with here. This seems nuts to me. There is absolutely no sense of poker community, save for a few posters


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Of course mistakes are pointed out, but the insult, as I suggested above, is more often infered than intended. Also, mistakes get pointed out multiple times because it is a good practice to comment on a hand before reading the results or what others think. A lot of posters do this. So if you post a hand with a really bad mistake, expect a lot of people to point it out. I would not view that as a bad thing; it should make it quite clear that you had a major error in reasoning that could be costing you a lot of expectation.

Maybe you just see what you look for. I look for good advice and I see a lot of it. I probably just skip posts that I recognize as worthless, and I don't get insulted by what people type on a public message board.

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Bravo.. Golf Glap..That's the attititude I take.. Well voiced..

[IamLeach]

First off, let me say that if more people had such enjoyable avatars as yours...flaming would go down at least 20% [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Now, I would like to say that what often can be viewed as mean and/or intentionaly hurtful is ofton just honest critisism. I openly accept all criticism, as it allows me to see a new angle on my play, on myself and on how others view me as a poker player. We as poker players are ( as others have said) cocky and domineering. This can result in comments that can be hard to hear. And in all honesty, some people need to just hear the straight up truth, which can be painful.

[srm80]

was that OP good, I didnt see what it said because I was fixated on the bouncing rack... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Willluck]

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Following aqnother poster around simply to flame him is trolling.

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Please take your own advice.

[/ QUOTE ]WTF are you talking about?

Interesting Post - because I can´t agree with that at all. I find that most of the responses here are really helpful - and often very funny. I really love the kind of ironical humor on this pages. The spirit on this pages is the spirit of intelligent people, trying to learn and get better and help others to become better poker players as well...so just dont take the few really hostile or moronic responses too personal and you will have a better time on these pages...and something else: if you are talking in a respectful way to others, most of the time they will respond in the same way to you...so if this is not the case for you perhaps there is something in YOUR way of talking others dont like ?...

Pokey___

[jason_t]

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[...] if you are talking in a respectful way to others, most of the time they will respond in the same way to you...so if this is not the case for you perhaps there is something in YOUR way of talking others dont like? [...]

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Best. Second post. Ever.