Saved by God?

[David Sklansky]

We both believe that they were made up by humans for various reasons. We only really differ on just one."


"Yes, your probably right."

And this dialogue would occur regardless of which of the several dozens of religious beliefs the second person was a practitioner of. It constantly amazes me that this in itself doesn't give people extreme pause.

[NotReady]

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PS NotReady I hope home is alright for you. You have my prayers.


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Thanks. Katrina missed us completely, not even a shower. But I've had ties in the past to N.O. and other spots that were hit hard. We lived there when I was very young and my brother was born there. Also I've spent a fair amount of time in Gulfport and Biloxi. We are getting some evacuees here as well.

[udontknowmickey]

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You also seem to imply that it matters somehow if people spread the good word about your Jesus. Why is this again? You haven't been clear to me yet.

And make sure that you address this following question in your answer. According to you guys, today, I am certainly either saved or unsaved. I don't know which but god does and god will not change his mind. So I can either rape and pillage today, or become a missionary for Jesus, it doesn't matter in the least to the issue of if I will be saved or not. Am I understanding you correctly?


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Though I fear I may alienate spaminator (and maybe NotReady) with this post, I feel he has been a little fuzzy with this question.

I deny "free will" completely in the sense that we can never be free from God's Will. If you want to call your perceived will (as in, I'm feel like I'm free to turn right or turn left) as free will, then you can do that, but realize it has no meaning because the only perspective that really matters is God's.

Thus denying free will completely, we can dispense with the "you are predestined but you're still free" statements that seem to crop up a lot on these boards. These just sound contradictory and in all honesty don't do much to show that Christianity is the only rational and logical worldview out there (which I can demonstrate that Christianity claims for itself).

Thus, to answer your question, it does matter what you do today, because God not only controls the ends (your state in eternity) but He controls the means to accomplish the ends. Thus if your state in eternity were for damnation, He would harden your heart and prepare you for destruction, you would completely reject Christ and all that He stands for. If your state in eternity were for salvation, then through your experiences (which He controls all the way) he would eventually soften your heart, replacing your heart of stone with a heart of flesh, so that you would be convicted of the sins that you commit and repent and cry out to Christ and Christ alone for salvation.

Thus you have a "choice" in the sense that you don't feel outside pressures to go one way or another, but all the while it is God choosing with you and through you. So it does matter what you do, because it is through those that God accomplishes the ends.

Hope that helps. Yes, it is my perspective, but I am thoroughly (sp?) convinced by Scripture that it is also Scripture's perspective.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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We both believe that they were made up by humans for various reasons. We only really differ on just one."


"Yes, your probably right."

And this dialogue would occur regardless of which of the several dozens of religious beliefs the second person was a practitioner of. It constantly amazes me that this in itself doesn't give people extreme pause.

[/ QUOTE ]

David,

If you would invest time to study Christianity, (ie- From Genesis to Revelations = 66 books) which I know for someone who is a novice to the religion like yourself is a big ask, (which you have stated you will not do also - fair enough) you would see that it is clearly explained.

But you must concede, that if you have trouble diagnosing "what a Christian is" then you have no chance of actually knowing how Christians can view other religions as 'false' and thier own as 'true'.

You can also make this case for Islam, Judaism et al, but that would require you to be familiar with their texts in turn, and as you have stated, this practice along with baseball is not on your agenda.

So from a position of ignorance about this subject (I in no way mean ignorance in the negative BTW) can you really be suprised you don't grasp the concept?

Cheers,
SDM

[Alex/Mugaaz]

This is not true, for the same reason people don't need to read books on craps betting strategy before knowing it doesn't work.

[NotReady]

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Though I fear I may alienate spaminator (and maybe NotReady) with this post,


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You don't alienate me. And I admit to fuzziness here. The Bible is very clear about two concepts but it does not clearly reconcile the two concepts. Thus I think the Bible itself is fuzzy,or more accurately, silent, and intentionally so. I hesitate to go beyond Biblical language on this issue, primarily because I don't think human logic can make an explanation that the Bible itself omits.

I'm familiar with much of the speculation that has been done in this area. I find it all interesting, some of it helpful, but none of it authoritative.

For instance, you "deny free will completely". I don't make this statement, in part because I don't really understand what free will means. Some Calvinists accept the term and then define it. I just think completely denying it is further than I'm willing to go.

I'm willing to discuss all the aspects of predestination but I'm only willing to be dogmatic about what is clear from Scripture.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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This is not true, for the same reason people don't need to read books on craps betting strategy before knowing it doesn't work.

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Tut tut my friend, you example is flawed.

With the game of craps we can observe all aspects of the game, from value to physics of play, the board it is played on, mathematics, and unambigious rules of play.

With the game of life, we don't know as much.

We know it's a gamble, with more possiblities than that of a pair of dice. There are a plethora of values and no clear rulebook other that that created by other players of the game who are the side of the table in the 'Government/legislation' section.

We see the table (earth) from many sides, and know this table is in a casino (universe), yet we cannot explore any other games and don't know if there are any other patrons in the casino who play different games.

We also know not who the casino owner is, though many theories abound.

In short, while one can look at Craps and say "Don't play", the decision to play has been decided for us by our parents when we entered the world and now must place our bet where we can best guess the +EV bet is on the table.

Craps,
SDM

[sexdrugsmoney]

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I'm willing to discuss all the aspects of predestination but I'm only willing to be dogmatic about what is clear from Scripture.

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Be dogmatic about nothing mi amigo.

If there's anything we can learn from Sklansky's dog posts is that the "dog always gets it". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers,
SDM

[NotReady]

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If there's anything we can learn from Sklansky's dog posts is that the "dog always gets it".


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nh

[Alex/Mugaaz]

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This is not true, for the same reason people don't need to read books on craps betting strategy before knowing it doesn't work.

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Tut tut my friend, you example is flawed.

With the game of craps we can observe all aspects of the game, from value to physics of play, the board it is played on, mathematics, and unambigious rules of play.

With the game of life, we don't know as much.

We know it's a gamble, with more possiblities than that of a pair of dice. There are a plethora of values and no clear rulebook other that that created by other players of the game who are the side of the table in the 'Government/legislation' section.

We see the table (earth) from many sides, and know this table is in a casino (universe), yet we cannot explore any other games and don't know if there are any other patrons in the casino who play different games.

We also know not who the casino owner is, though many theories abound.

In short, while one can look at Craps and say "Don't play", the decision to play has been decided for us by our parents when we entered the world and now must place our bet where we can best guess the +EV bet is on the table.

Craps,
SDM

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Since I used to be like you I'll reply the following. Re-write this post, except try to debate the opposite side, and try as hard as you can, using the same examples(if possible).