Middle East Terrorists Kill 20. Bush: oh well

[jdl22]

Wow I was certainly not dissapointed by the amazing logical mind of Gamblor. What I thought I would "add" to this discussion is using Gamblor's logic and applying his arguments to the Palestinians and see what he has to say about it:

[ QUOTE ]
Consider this possibility:

The Palestinians are rational human beings, not savage impulsive reactionaries as you believe.

I tell them I will knock their house down, thus putting their family out on the street and incurring a whole lot of expense for a family that likely doesn't have much money, if they choose to murder an Israeli.

Do you believe that Palestinian will go ahead and murder an Israeli?

Only a total racist would believe the Palestinians are incapable of rational thought and would automatically sign up for a murder team at the risk of the family house being destroyed.

Unless, of course, they have been brainwashed into believing that they will be heros for their murder, and in the next world they will be in paradise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Consider this possibility: The Israelis are rational human beings not savage reactionaries as some here believe.

I tell them I will send waves of suicide bombers into their restaurants shopping malls and busses, thus killing many of their men women and children and making them feel like they could be killed any time they are out. Given that they don't like their people to die and want them to feel safe that is quite an expense for the Israeli government

Do you think that they will still continue to attack palestinians and destroy homes of innocent Palestinians?

Only a total anti-semite would believe that these jews are not capable of this kind of rational thought and would continue to kill innocent palestinians and destry their homes at the risk of continuing suicide attacks.

Unless of course they have been brainwashed into believing they are heros because they are "on the real front lines of the War on Terror."

[ QUOTE ]

House demolitions are not punishment, they are deterrent, as I just explained. Only results-oriented thinking could believe otherwise.

I thought suicide bombers were "resisting occupation"! If they're resisting occupation then they're rational and not murderous savages. And if they're rational then knowing that their family will be homeless likely will stop them.



[/ QUOTE ]

Suicide bombings are not punishment they are a deterrent, as I just explained. Only results oriented thinking could believe otherwise.

I thought that Israelis were fighting terrorism! If they're fighting terrorism then they're rational and not murderous, destructive savages. And if they're rational then knowing that their family members could die while riding the bus or going to a cafe will stop them.

/end satire

I don't actually believe the arguments I was pushing forward there. What I find most scary about Gamblor and his views is that the problems continue because both sides feel the same way he does. As long as the Israelis and their supporters ignore their abuses and the Arabs ignore the Palestinian abuses the situation cannot improve. Repeatedly Gamblor puts forth a viewpoint making it quite clear that he only cares about the abuses on the other side and is not willing to acknowledge that the Israli government is committing them as well.

As I said in another thread repeatedly starting threads where arabs do terrible things does not make it ok for Israelis to do terrible things as well. If you really believe that the Israeli soceity and government is superior then why don't you call on the government to act in a superior, civilised manner. Paraphrasing a congressman from the prisoner abuse hearings if you're going to be the good guys you have to act like the good guys.

[Gamblor]

Violence has worsened in Gaza since Sharon proposed evacuating troops and Jewish settlers in a plan backed by most Israelis and the United States, but rejected by his right-wing Likud party in a referendum earlier this month.

Connecting these two events is ludicrous. I noticed no mention of Tali Hatuel and her daughters, or the rocketes fired at the Israeli APCs, which sparked this whole operation.

President Bush called the Gaza bloodshed "troubling" but, addressing Jewish-Americans in a tight election campaign, told the powerful pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC that Israel "has every right to defend itself from terror."

[sarcasm]Wow, no bias in this article[/sarcasm]

No mention that many of the marchers were holding Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers.

Why are schoolchildren marching in a combat zone, where militants were firing wildly from rooftops while other men surrendered.
???

[Gamblor]

Do you think that they will still continue to attack palestinians and destroy homes of innocent Palestinians?


Only a total anti-semite would believe that these soldiers are deliberately attacking palestinians and destroying the homes of innocent palestinians for the sake of wanton murder and destruction, and not as yet another of the hundreds of measures they have tried to protect the civilians of the nation from the terrorist threat.

Unless of course they have been brainwashed into believing they are heros because they are "on the real front lines of the War on Terror."

Who, may I ask, is doing the brainwashing in a democratic nation with freedom of religion, press, and information?

[nicky g]

"Connecting these two events is ludicrous."

Of course it isn't. Ever since Sharon announced hisplans he has engaged in a series of violent actions such as assassinations, incursions and demolitions - supposedly partly to facilitate the withdrawal, partly to make himself look tough and sell it to the hard right.

"No mention that many of the marchers were holding Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers."

Any evidence of this? Were they firing them?

W"hy are schoolchildren marching in a combat zone, where militants were firing wildly from rooftops while other men surrendered? "


They were marching towards the demolition zone, not in it. The real question isn't why Gaza residents were peacefully protesting an invasion in their own town but what invading foreign forces were doing in that town; not why they were near a war zone but why the IDF created the war zone by invading.

[superleeds]

Educate. Both sides.

[Gamblor]

Vis-a-vis the Arab/Israeli conflict?

Arabs:

1) PA: return of all of the descendants of the Arabs that left in 1948 to what is now Israel, PA-sovereignty over Jerusalem, and an end to Jewish villages in the West Bank.

2) Hamas/other Islamists: an Islamic theocracy in all of Israel and the West Bank and Gaza

3) Mainstream Palestinians, including secular terrorist organizations: Opinion varies, obviously, but near unanimous opinion in major cities, where TV (and thus, Arafat) has greater influence, is end to Jews in West Bank, reparations for their refugee status, and free passage into Israel to conduct business/gain employment. Smaller villages aren't politically oriented, and rarely accept terrorists until they force their way in. Most smaller villages are secular and just want to maintain economic ties with similar Jewish Israeli villages, couldn't care less otherwise.

4) Most Arab states: End of Israel, Arab sovereignty over Israeli territory. Return of Palestinians to Israel, where they will become majority, vote in Arab governments, join League of Arab States, and form another de-facto Arab state in the Middle East.

Israelis:

1) Peaceniks (i.e. Gush Shalom, etc.): hand over anything that'll make the hurting stop; land, money, whatever. Just give up.

2) Labour: Protect the Jewish right to a Jewish homeland, free of pogroms and Holocausts. If giving up the settlements will do that, then fine. Negotiations with anyone can succeed, but must maintain Jewish homeland.

3) Likud: We need Israeli military presence in West Bank to protect major Israeli cities, in close proximity (within 10 mi. in some places) to Arab cities, from attack. Security for Jews, which includes access to water resources (which had been cut off by Syria, via the Golan). Jews must learn to protect themselves rather than rely on international community to fail them again. Conflicts are natural, only by asserting one's self can one gain; the goal is a fair and equitable balance of power between Arabs and Jews.

4) Settlers: To live in the cities they believe God gave them, but more importantly, were forced to abandon in 1948 when Arab rioters made Jewish life impossible, until they returned to rebuild Jewish villages (settlements) in 1967.

[Gamblor]

not why they were near a war zone but why the IDF created the war zone by invading.

This is a joke, right?

TO CLEAR OUT TERRORIST WEAPONS SMUGGLING TUNNELS

[nicky g]

"for Jews, which includes access to water resources "

Which includes theft of Palestinian water resources, you mean.

"Settlers: To live in the cities they believe God gave them, but more importantly, were forced to abandon in 1948 when Arab rioters made Jewish life impossible, until they returned to rebuild Jewish villages (settlements) in 1967. "

Yeah the Russian and American Jews in Hebron really have a claim to it. I sympthise with Jews having fled/been expelled from such areas and I wouuld like to see Jews being able to live peacefully there as apart of a final settlement (one reason why I lean towards a binational state) but rabid racist lunatics like the community that spawned Baruch Goldstein should not be allowed to colonise Palestinian land and resources far disproportionate to their numbers.
Of course many settlements/settlers have nothing to do with religion, but they still rob local Palestinians of a huge amount of land and resources.

[Gamblor]

Eliminate anti-semitism from the Arab world, and show them that their leaders are blinding them to the truth:

That Jews are not descendent from monkeys and donkeys.
That their leaders make billions in oil money/UN relief money, while they starve and are told it is Israel's/America's fault.
That Jews have a right to have a Jewish State like Israel, just as Arabs have the right to have an Arab state like Iraq, Jordan, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Oman, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, or Egypt.

There's my solution.

[Gamblor]

It should not wilfully insult the Palestinians by calling Sharon "a man of peace."

Who have you seen with a 24 hour grimace on his face on television in the last 3 years?

Who do you see smiling and cheering on throngs of supporters despite the fact that he knows hundreds of them may die?