Value of the "profession," bereft?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

People forget that sports should and do contribute to overall physical fitness and well-being, teamork and community.

I think Al was referring to professional sports and it stars, which promotes none of the above (well, maybe a sense of community).


Poker, on the other hand offers no sense of teamwork or community and promotes a "look out for myself only" attitude.

Wow. An endeavor that rewards self-reliance, intelligence and mental toughness. If you ask me, we need more of that in society, not less.

there is an epidemic of obesity

probably exacerbated by too many hours watching sports on TV.

[James282]

Hey Kurn, interestingly enough, critics beleive that the intent behind Polonius' advice was not to make it seem like good advice, but to satirize people who give too much damn advice(mettling parents!). Towards his conclusion, Polonius also says "Brevity is the soul of wit." I agree with him here! But that doesn't make him any less an idiot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Anyway, I wasn't criticizing you for quoting him, I just find it amusing. Much of what he says actually rings true, which is basically just a Shakespearean paradox.
-James

[James282]

Hi GoT, your post is probably the best on this thread. I was raised a Christian, and while I no longer believe in God, I believe whole heartedly in the worldly Christian morals and values. I think the final line of your post essentially renders the entire debate moot. Does playing poker help anybody? Who knows? One thing is for certain, there are a hell of a lot of other things one can do with one's time that benefit society much more. This is a decision I was faced with this last summer. I had just started making a (then) significant amount of money playing poker, but, what I enjoy most is working at the Presbyterian Camp Johnsonburg every summer. I have been doing this since I was 16, and I have absolutely loved it every year. The only problem is, I only get paid about 2k for the entire summer. This amount is almost negligible when compared with what I could have made playing poker. The decision only took me about 5 minutes to make. Some things have got to be more important than the raw earning of money. No use deluding oneself to think playing poker is "admirable", it isn't. It isn't bad, either. It is a hobby, like playing video games, collecting stamps, playing Magic, following baseball, etc etc. Or, it can be a job, like trading stocks, sweeping streets, or teaching. It is fun, and profitable, but that is about it.
-James

P.S. GoT, since you are such a grammar Nazi, the sentence in your first paragraph should read "She and I" and not "Her and I". Enjoy! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

FWIW, the best lesson we can learn from Polonius is "don't evesdrop." [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[James282]

haha!
-James

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey James,

I was raised a Christian, and while I no longer believe in God, I believe whole heartedly in the worldly Christian morals and values.

I definitely respect you for that. I wish the world was full of more people who upheld those same morals and values.

I think the final line of your post essentially renders the entire debate moot. Does playing poker help anybody? Who knows? One thing is for certain, there are a hell of a lot of other things one can do with one's time that benefit society much more.

I wasn't trying to render the debate moot, 'cause I think it's a very interesting debate and one that most of us poker players probably have never considered. I was just trying to bring a different perspective into the discussion; one that's definitely in the minority among poker players. I don't really think the question is moot, but I just approach it differently than most.

This is a decision I was faced with this last summer. I had just started making a (then) significant amount of money playing poker, but, what I enjoy most is working at the Presbyterian Camp Johnsonburg every summer. I have been doing this since I was 16, and I have absolutely loved it every year. The only problem is, I only get paid about 2k for the entire summer. This amount is almost negligible when compared with what I could have made playing poker. The decision only took me about 5 minutes to make. Some things have got to be more important than the raw earning of money.

That's awesome. You deserve a tremendous amount of respect for that decision, and I hope you'll be rewarded for it someday, if you haven't already (not monetarily speaking, of course).

No use deluding oneself to think playing poker is "admirable", it isn't. It isn't bad, either. It is a hobby, like playing video games, collecting stamps, playing Magic, following baseball, etc etc. It is fun, and profitable, but that is about it.

I completely agree. There's nothing wrong with poker and I enjoy it thoroughly, but I'm not going to try to justify it and delude myself into believing I'm doing something great either.

GoT, since you are such a grammar Nazi, the sentence in your first paragraph should read "She and I" and not "Her and I".

Oi. You are, of course, correct. Stupid grammatical error on my part. Thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

GoT

PS. Congrats on your 282nd post! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[CrisBrown]

Hi Guy,

[ QUOTE ]
My problem is my own convictions of what I want to accomplish with my life and how poker fails to meet these convictions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you have two alternatives:

(a) Quit playing poker and do something "meaningful."

(b) Find a better set of convictions.

The latter is not offered in jest, nor in derision. I'm Catholic -- I know, I know, Catholics are heathens, but bear with me -- and fortunately Mother Church has a longer history and has had time to grow up a little with respect to the virtues of joy, and prayer. In the words of St. Augistine: "Love God, love your neighbor, and do as you will."

It sounds simplistic, but that's really all there is to it, because that the very essence of a life of prayer.

If you're doing that, and supporting yourself financially, and taking joy along the way, you ARE "making a difference" in the world.

The differences you make may be invisible to you, and that's okay. We needn't know what good we work in the world, and in fact I think a lot of the time it's best if we don't. When we know what good we're doing, we tend to get prideful and think more highly of ourselves, especially if we make the mistake of comparing our good works to those of others. I think that's exactly what Christ meant in the words: "Don't let your right hand know what the left hand is doing."

I have no idea what good -- if any -- my novels do for the people who read them. I occasionally get reader mail where someone says this or that story really opened their eyes, changed their view of something, or was a breath of fresh air when they needed one. That's fine, and I write back to say "Thank you." But I don't write my stories with that in mind, because frankly I won't produce good art if I set out to give people happy-happy-joy-joy thoughts. I simply try to be faithful to the characters and their story, craft the work as well as I possibly can, and let the rest be as it may. My goal is the work itself. What comes of that is up to the reader, and to God.

Similarly, I try to be a pleasant companion at the poker table, pour oil on troubled waters when and where I can, encourage people who are feeling down, and be the kind of player people don't mind losing money to. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

If, in the process, something I do changes someone's life ... again, that's up to them, and God. I don't set out to do it. I just set out to play as well as I can and try to reflect the joy of life in whatever comments I make.

Oddly, Catholics are often castigated by fundamentalists who believe we think we have to work our way into heaven, or earn our salvation. Why? I don't know, but people seem to think that way about us.

In fact, we're taught that everything we do -- from driving to work to typing a letter to going to the grocery and even to playing a game of poker -- should be an act of prayer. That is, in everything we do, we should try to be in touch with what Dean Koontz so delightfully and accurately refers to as "the Playful Presence."

If you want a model for "making a difference," look at your family dog. It doesn't worry about whether it's "making a difference" in your life. It simply loves, forgives, takes delight in your pleasure and attention, looks over you when you're sleeping, and generally wants nothing more than the pleasure of your company.

If I could be that content ... if I could be that delighted with the most simple things in life ... I would feel that I had reached supreme spiritual transcendence ... and all of it without ever wondering whether I'm "making a difference." And if you need a source for that, read the works of St. Francis of Assisi.

I don't want to open a whole religious argument about whose church is better. In fact, Mother Church teaches us not to do that, because Catholic teaching is that if anyone seeks after God, by whatever path, God will find him. So I don't need you to "convert" to my church or anything like that.

I do hope, though, that perhaps you can see a broader view of "making a difference," and the notion of treating poker(and everything else you do in life) as a spiritual vocation. You have nothing to be ashamed of, and I'm quite certain that the Playful Presence looks down on you with a warm smile, an open heart, and a wish that you would simply enjoy all of the beauty He/She has provided for you in life.

Cris

[James282]

Haha, thanks! Yes, I am rewarded every summer that I go back there. Far more than the difference between 2k and whatever I could make playing cards. I'll be going back there as long as it fits in with my being a teacher and having summers off. I think that viewing poker this way actually helps me a lot, because I can view it simply as competitive, fun, and profitable. By not taking myself so seriously when it comes to poker, I don't take bad beats or bad sessions quite as badly as some. A very good friend of mine who claims to be a "pro" player will get very upset when crappy play beats him, because he feels like he deserves to win. Anyways, it is always nice to read posts from people who are well-balanced as well as good poker players. Take it easy bro.
Peace,
James

[ResidentParanoid]

GOT, you have it exactly right. If your only goal in life is to make money, so that you can pursue your leisure time as you wish, then you may be happy playing poker as your "profession". If you want to "have some lasting impact" or "feel good about your profession", then professional gambling may only lead to disappointment.

As others have stated, your main "contribution" as a poker player is by filling a seat that makes it possible for others to be entertained by the game. This has some value. The indirect effect of money flowing through the gaming industry certainly has an impact.

At least in some other "entertainment" industries, you can argue the lasting benefit of artistic contributions. Not sure that you can argue that your artful, free card play getting you to the river for 1/2 BB less has any lasting artistic value. Then again, I'm not sure that a spectacular pancake block by a left tackle in a football game has any lasting impact either. And I'm not sure that any Ben Stiller movie has ever added any lasting value to society, although he seems to be well appreciated and well paid.

But other professions build things, provide needed services, or contribute in other more tangible ways to the improvement of society. I suppose if you find a way to do this with your poker earnings, you may fulfill your need to serve society and others around you.

[Lou Krieger]

[ QUOTE ]
My wife, who is supportive of my poker habit, as no previous hobby has ever been profitable, asked me this morning about the essential value of poker as a profession. She suggested that all jobs have value both as a way to earn money (honorable) and also provide a service or needed function. Doctors, teachers, waitresses, construction workers and ditchdiggers all play an important role in society. Professional poker certainly can earn money to help support their families, but is there value to society beyond this?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question has been asked in poker forums for years now. Poker does provide some entertainment value to the players as well as to those who watch the games, and with the increased interest in watching poker on TV, I guess that audience is sizable enough to be considered substantial.

One could easily make the philosophical case that poker is no better and no worse than professional sports, movies, writing novels, or any other form of "entertainment."

Another case could be made that the aggregate economic viability of poker (how many people play, why they play, how much is won or lost) is a valid measure of rational choice in a free society.

I could easily argue that poker falls far below the level of Mother Theresa's work in terms of it's societal worth, but I could argue equally well that Mother Theresa's work was aimed at assisting those who would not have survived without her, and from the perspective of a social Darwinist, her work -- while meretorious -- was ultimately unnecessary. (This paragaph reads like topics assigned to team in a college debating society.)

So choose a value, any value, and apply it as an interrogatory against which poker can be examined. For each value, you'll get wildly differing answers.

From my personal perspective, I see poker as a voluntary association of individuals who enjoy the game, even as some win and others lose. I don't see it as providing any overriding social benefit to society at large, but I don't see that as a necessary mandate. After all, if one is interested in the "greater good," there are myriad ways of doing good works, and there's an entire structure of private charities desingned to facilitate just this sort of thing.
________
Lou Krieger
Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Hold'em Excellence: From Beginner to Winner," at Royal Vegas Poker.
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou