Navy Seals vs Army Rangers vs other special forces vs UFC

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RE:All

UFC guys might not stand as good of a chance if killing your opponent is involved/allowd. For example, seals are not trained to get their targets to "tap out", but they are trained to kill in unarmed combat. The idea that special forces get a cliffs notes version of UFC techniques is... musguided at best. In UFC there are a lack of eye gouges, through attacks etc.

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It's true that sport fights are very very different from real fights.

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Kdawg,

Royce is a good point by you. But to say that he is representative of the average UFC fighter is more than generous, he is like the Michael Jordan of UFC, no one else has ever come close.

On a sidenote, has anyone else seen the video of him fighting a Kung Fu master where his brother is narrating? Pretty awesome stuff.

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The one with the hilariously inept very young "kung fu master" who flicked a kick out at his leg like he was testing to see if the water in the pool was too cold and might hurt him? The one with the overblown narration about how this bout proved that the Gracie style was invincible?

That was pretty awesome already. Awesomely funny.

[BCPVP]

If you look hard enough, there's some video of Rickson (I think) basically picking a fight with some guy on a beach and then kicking his ass with similiar commentary. The Gracies' martial prowess are only rivaled by their egos.

[Colonel Kataffy]

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Colonel,

Much like boxers, UFC fighters do not spend all day every day practicing combat. They do general physical fitness/endurance business the vast majority of the time, which seals also do. Seals are trained in techniques that are simple, direct, and effective. Extensive training is not necessarily required. Seals also do way more hand to hand combat training then you'd think. UFC fighters spend a great deal training for moves/maneuvors that would not be relevant in a fight vs a seal. People keep saying things like "once the seal is on his back he is done for", but they keep ignoring that this kind of strategy only works in UFC becuase the most effective counters to it are illegal.Basically people have 2 points

1, UFC pitfighters know biz seals don't. Please explain how they will be able to get in close enough to use said info without taking a blow to the eyes, throat, back of the head, having their arms disabled through pressure points etc.
2. UFC fighters can gouge eyes too- i'm sure they can. Do they train for this? I doubt it. Have they been instructed in the most effective lethal techniques? Unlikely. Have they spent as much time on practicing to kill someone as a seal? NO, because as you say, they are spending 24 hours a day practicing for the UFC ring.

Feel free to point out the flaws in any of my other points.

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1. It would be very unlikely that a seal would be able to land a technique such as the ones you are refering two on a UFC fighter. Most UFC fighters are just as capable of avoiding a punch to the face as they are avoiding a open hand technique to the throat. The typical UFC fighter is going to have more athletic fight skills and will better be able to defend against these types of strikes. A UFC fighter is much more likely to deliver an incapaciting blow to a seal before the seal is to the UFC fighter. The techniques you describe are effective against people that have no experience fighting and those that are caught off guard. You could spend a year training in these techniques, but against a UFC fighter, it would be unlikely that you could get yourself in position effectively employ any of them. You wont be able to get a clean shot at the eyes or throat. You won't be able to get a clean shot at the back of the head. And a clean shot is what it is going to take to incapacitate them. Disabling pressurepoints in the arm, give me abreak, have you ever heard of an arm bar. Do you know how difficult it is to employ one against UFC fighter. They work on avoiding that kind of thing and are good at it.

2. The defensive tactics that work to defend against an eye gouging are unsuprisingly similar to ones that defend against puches to the face. Essentially, having good footwork and keeping your hands in a defensive position.

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I've always had a huge respect for Navy Seals. I envy how fearless they must be. I feel like this might come down to which member of each group is most capable psychologically of killing another person. And so, I think the Navy Seal might have the edge here. Obvious but possibly important statement: it's one thing to potentially break someone's arm or knock him unconscious (this definitely requires some emotional detatchment), but killing seemingly is on an entirely different level.

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If not killing someone means they will kill you, its not that hard to kill someone.

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Not true. It has been a major problem in the military to get soldiers to actually fire their guns at the enemy and not in the air. This is one reason for all the depersonalization that has been used. It's not that the soldiers are afraid of exposing themselves; it's just hard to cross that line to kill people, for most people.

That's one reason why crooks sometimes grab the guns right out of the hands of homeowners who have them trained on them. They can't bring themselves to fire it, only brandish it.

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If you look hard enough, there's some video of Rickson (I think) basically picking a fight with some guy on a beach and then kicking his ass with similiar commentary. The Gracies' martial prowess are only rivaled by their egos.

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Yup. This is all too common among martial artists, and the Gracies, good though they are, have been laying it on very very thick from the beginning.

[ScottyP431]

BC,

You say "think about why do seals go for more training".

Umm, im guessing its because they are interested in that kind of thing, not because they are worried they will meet a UFC fighter in a bar one night. If I was a seal, i would probably try to learn everything possible in case i had to try and fight for my life. Regardless, it proves that they train more than you think, and that many seek out techniques you seem to think are isolated to the UFC.

"Who is hess"
John Hess, fought in the UFC around 95.

"The techniques used by UFC fighters were not developed for the rules of the UFC."

True, but that is what they focus on when training. Kickboxing was not developed for K1, nevertheless... You cant have your cake and eat it to. If who trains the most amount of time= they win, than seals train way more to kill than UFC guys do, even if UFC also have some knowledge of fighting to kill. If it's not total training time, than I will contend killing techniques will defeat UFC techniques. No one has been able to explain what it is about the extra training UFC fighters supposedly do that equips them to defeat someone trying to kill them.


"The rules exist to marginalize the injuries that are inherent in applying such techniques while facing 100% resistance. "

Agreed, the rules are INTENDED to reduce injury. One result of such rules, intended or otherwise, is that a certain style of fighting is the most effective that would not be if the rules were removed. A point you continually ignore. If there are no rules, grappling goes out the window, submission holds go out the window. Try and break the arm of a man trying to kill you so you can then defeat him when he has only one arm and he will kill you before you do.

"UFC fighters train in techniques that without rules would kill the other fighter. Moreover, they train to apply these techniques against people who are fully resisting. Can you say the same about the SEALs?"

What? You think seals train to fight peole cooperating with them? I'm pretty sure they are aware of the concept of "resisting". And no , UFC fighters do not train to deal with 100 percent resistance. They train to deal with resistance that occurs within the confines of the UFC rules. If your claim is "you cant practice really eye gouging someone" than yes, perhaps a seal has never carried their move to fullfillment in real life. I fail to see the impact to this claim.

"How do they train groin attacks, eye gouges etc with full resistance? How sure can we be that they will apply them correctly and effectively when such resistance occurs? We can't."

Well, things like Krav Maga are scientifically designed to inflict the maximum damage despite resistance, and to utilize the way your opponent attacks you to minimize his ability to defend himself. While some UFC'ers also train with these kind of things, i highly doubt they do it as much because it is USELESS to them in their chosen profession.

Also, you try to characterize my argument as if I am saying "seals can groin punch, so there". While that is one example they are trained in a variety of lethal techniques. You say define lethal, well, a blow to the kneck can kill you, a blow to the back/side of the head can kill you, a proper strike to the nose can cause immediate brain damage, blows to the spinal chord can paralyze instantly. Do you really not know what i am talking about? I think you do. Unfortunately, its not enough for a UFC'er to know theoretically that you can kill someone by hitting them in the neck, you need to know the techniques involved. It's possible that UFC'ers know this. If it is true that UFC'ers know all seal techniques and would use them in the fight than it is really seal vs seal though isnt it?

"Again, why do you believe such techniques exist? My guess is you have little to no experience with NHB training. Groin/eye/kidney attacks have always existed."

I believe they exist because i have read about them, discussed them with seals, seen them demonstrated and because i have no reason to believe this is a giant conspiracy.Always existed- Yes they have. But killing has become more scientifically efficient, see Krav Maga point above. And while UFC fighters probably have a cursory understanding of these moves, it is not what they are spending their time on training.

"And you know what? Even though the rules say that you can't strike the opponent's groin, guess what? It still happens."

Is your contention that this is equivalent to a no rules assault on your vital organs/areas? Again, reducing my argument to "junk shots". And if it is your contention that UFC fighters can tough anything out and just continue fighting you are being naive and ignoring the scientific aspects of fighting. No matter how big of a badass you are, get hit in the RAS (i think i referred to it as RAC earlier, which was wrong) and you are unconscious. Pain from a pressure point strike will literally inhibit your ability to think.

[ScottyP431]

Colonel,

Explain how when a UFC fighter is grabbing me to put me in some kind of submission hold while i am standing up, that i will be unable to reach his face or the back of his head. And how he will put me in a hold while still using his arms to defend his head. Defense and offense present tradeoffs. Grappling techniques work in UFC because when you grab someone they are not allowed to hit you in the most effective manner. If your claim is the UFC'er will box the seal to death by keeping thier distance and not getting in close that is a differant story, and relates to endurance. I would bet my life that seals are more generally physically fit than UFC fighters. Everything they do is about endurance. UFC fighters get slow after a few rounds.

"The techniques you describe are effective against people that have no experience fighting and those that are caught off guard. "

I cannot believe more than one person is advancing the argument that seals are trained only to fight people with no military training/who are defenseless. What planet are you on? See Krav Maga points in my other post.

Your comment on pressure points misses completely. Getting someone in an arm bar is HARDER than hitting them in a pressure point becuase you need to be holding them.

"Having good footwork"
What UFC'er are you referring to here? What UFC are you watching actually?

[Colonel Kataffy]

well, I guess there is not convincing you. you just underestimate the ability of the typical UFC fighter. I guess you'd have to see a few fights to believe it, but I doubt they'll arrange them purely to prove you wrong.

[gamblore99]

I browsed through this.
The part about army/navy guys being trained to kill makes a big difference. At the level of fighting these guys are at, the thinking has to be very very fast. If the UFC guys are not trained to use these lethal moves, they won't be able to pick them up and incoporate them into there strategy so easily. They will have to think and adjust certain ideas. One defence that may have sufficed in regular UFC fighting may be no good now because of a possible lethal move that wasn't a threat before. Furthermore when an oppurtunity to do some eye gouging or rip the other guys heart out of his chest comes up they may not be able to act quickley enough because they haven't trained themselves for that. I still have no idea who would win.