The spread of Christianity

[Lestat]

Your last 3 questions is how I became an agnositc. In the end, I just couldn't get past these issues or leave them unreconciled.

That "they just existed", is a hard concept to accept. But as I pointed out to someone else, it should follow that you will run into same problem explaining God if you think things through logically. If you come up with a logical explanation to the contrary, please do not forget to inform me, because I would be very interested to listen.

I happen to agree that it is most likely the universe wasn't just always there, but was created. Whatever created it must've been outside the universe. That something could've been God or just as easily something else. If it was a creator, there is no reason to think he cares about us and is listening to every one of our prayers. He could just as easily be a disinterested creator.

I personally think the most likely scenario is that there are dimensions which exist beyond ours and something from one of these dimensions created (possibly by accident),our universe. But I obviously have no way of knowing so it is just a "belief".

In the end, I have a hard time believing in religions. Mainly for the 3 reasons you stated. This would not predict a loving God, but one that plays cruel games.

I would be interested to hear your expounded theories which you say you have. You won't bore me. You also mention a tragedy. I'd be interested in that as well and how it cemented your beliefs.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
1) How could a loving God sentence someone to eternal damnation?

2) If an Omnipotent God created the heavens and the earth and the angels, then he created Lucifer. If he created Lucifer, is evil in the world his fault? If so, how could he be all loving?

3) If Christianity is the only way, do Muslims have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ? If not, can they be sentenced to hell? If the answer is yes, how is this fair and just?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty safe to say that most believers have dealt w/ these things at one time or another. I'll let Mempho comment as not to hijack, but will probably chime in here and there. FWIW- I really don't see much value in "religion" either, that's why i attend a non-denominational church. I've learned to take anyones teachings and test them with scripture to see their validity.

Don't forget rich, poor smart, dumb, people, men, and women from every type of backround all over the world claim to expierience a relationship with Christ on a daily basis. I used to be able to dismiss this, but have come to believe that there's more to it than that.

I think it comes down to a choice- believe or not. We'll all have doubts. I read a prayer that said " Lord I believe, but help me with my unbeliefs."

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
The Church was founded in the same lifetime as those who experienced the resurrection. If it didn't happen and was all a myth, it would not have caught on so quickly. The fact that it was made up would have been obvious.


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Very key point, which i left out in my post.

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> Choose belief or not. </font>

First, I don't think we "choose" belief. You can choose to believe in a talking tree God for example. In the absence of concrete information and/or answers, we take our best guess. I will follow this by saying that what people profess can be very different than what they actually believe.

It was perfectly logical at one time to believe the earth was flat. It was also perfectly logical at one time to believe in Gods. Imagine what happened last December in Asia occurring 2000 years ago.

People are going about their daily lives. Men leave to fish, woman are tending to their babies. It is a perfectly pleasant day without a cloud in the sky. ALL OF A SUDDEN...

The sea rises out of nowhere and swallows entire villages! In an instant, tens of thousands of people are dead and wiped off the face of the earth. This is a pretty powerful event.

Of course, today we know this to be a tsunami. But what would the people of 2000 years have thought? They might never have been in an earthquake and certainly didn't know anything about tectonic plates shifting hundreds of miles away beneath the sea. They may have understood weather some, but it was a perfectly clear day. No man could have caused this. Someone greater than human must've been angry. A God. A supernatural being.

My point is science can evolve because the very nature of science means that theories can be tested and results predicted based on past results. Religion is not a testable theory. It does not contain any evidence which can be tested. Theories cannot be proved. It is belief and nothing else.

Beliefs are important. Like the people of 2000 years ago, it is sometimes important to form beliefs in the absence of answers. Beliefs can and should evolve. But it seems to me that the more we learn about our environment, the more our beliefs should shift away from many of these religious claims. At least for the logical thinker.

[RJT]

Mempho,

I'll take a stab at it:

1) How could a loving God sentence someone to eternal damnation?

Free will. This is very easy to see if we take the analogy that “eternal damnation” is simply the absence of God. Is that a bad thing? If it is, how does that differ than simply believing that is how it is for everyone anyway - i.e., if no God?

2) If an Omnipotent God created the heavens and the earth and the angels, then he created Lucifer. If he created Lucifer, is evil in the world his fault? If so, how could he be all loving?

Rumor is that God created Lucifer as a good angel. Lucifer chose to go on his own - chose not God. God did not create him evil.

3) If Christianity is the only way, do Muslims have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ? If not, can they be sentenced to hell? If the answer is yes, how is this fair and just?

See answer to #1.

RJT

[RJT]

I think that any belief has to start with the decision in one’s own mind whether God exists or not. After that things can follow “logically”.

Using the Bible as a text for this discussion, The Old Testament can be filled with metaphors and parables as well as an historical text. The New Testament, Jesus Himself taught in mostly parables and illustrations. Camel/eye of needle for example. I don’t think He was being literal. If He was then He was basically saying no rich person can enter Heaven. If He meant that, then we need to figure out what He means by “rich”. David S.’s dog/kid in Africa posts show how hard the concept of having any money is as determining factor. If one has $15 then one can argue that one is rich vis a vis saving a kid’s life in Africa.

For me, the more I understand the Universe, the birth of the Earth and living things the more I am convinced it was started by some really smart being I call God. I simply have a hard time imagining the Universe just popping out of nothing. In this notion I can see the parallel for the atheist. That one would have a hard time imagining an Eternal God. (edit: I just re-read some posts and noticed you said something similar to this - didn't mean to steal your thought. I think it is a good one either way.)

I see it as I simply start with God and work forward. The atheist, understandably, simply says since we don’t know, I’ll wait for more information.

I disagree with you. I think we choose to believe or not. We take a leap of Faith that there is a God. Then we take a leap on our particular Religions. What happens once we get to that point is basically finding a relationship with God. Some I think can do it the opposite - stumble on a relationship with God and then realize they believe (and this is what I think you might be saying). Maybe that is how it really works - that God found me and I thought I found God. Who knows?

But, once one believes, it is always a working relationship. Like a marriage. You don’t just get married and then go about life. It takes nurturing, learning, experiencing , etc. It isn’t a static thing - Faith.

Some Saints whom we call “Mystics” write about actual experiences with God. Intense contemplative prayer culminating with an actual momentary union with God. Maybe they were nut cases. If Religion, certainly if God, is false then they probably were nut jobs. But, then again maybe there is something to it.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">First and foremost, the other leaders cited ruled primarily out of fear. Jesus allowed anyone to leave his ministry anytime they wanted without any fear of earthly consequence. </font>

This did cross my mind, but I quickly dismissed it. I attended Catholic school as a kid and always felt that fear was heavily used combined with threats.

No earthly consequences? Maybe not. But what about eternal suffering? Gnashing your teeth in eternal hell? What about a rich man's chances of getting into heaven the same as a camel through an eye of a needle? What about Armageddon? Etc. etc.

The bottom line: You cannot make the argument that Jesus led without fear. Fear and guilt are constant themes that run throughout Catholic teachings.

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Yes these lines run through Catholic teaching but that catholic traditions trace there way back to Constantine not Jesus. The early first century church was vastly different than the organized state religion that Constantine put in place.

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> The atheist, understandably, simply says since we don’t know, I’ll wait for more information. </font>

You are describing an agnositc here. Atheists actually have more in common with theists in that they both have come to form a belief about God. The only difference is that the atheist believes there is no God, while the theists believe there is.

[Jeff V]

Quote:
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1) How could a loving God sentence someone to eternal damnation?

2) If an Omnipotent God created the heavens and the earth and the angels, then he created Lucifer. If he created Lucifer, is evil in the world his fault? If so, how could he be all loving?

3) If Christianity is the only way, do Muslims have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ? If not, can they be sentenced to hell? If the answer is yes, how is this fair and just?


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It's pretty safe to say that most believers have dealt w/ these things at one time or another. I'll let Mempho comment as not to hijack, but will probably chime in here and there. FWIW- I really don't see much value in "religion" either, that's why i attend a non-denominational church. I've learned to take anyones teachings and test them with scripture to see their validity.

Don't forget rich, poor smart, dumb, people, men, and women from every type of backround all over the world claim to expierience a relationship with Christ on a daily basis. I used to be able to dismiss this, but have come to believe that there's more to it than that.

I think it comes down to a choice- believe or not. We'll all have doubts. I read a prayer that said " Lord I believe, but help me with my unbeliefs."

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> The atheist, understandably, simply says since we don’t know, I’ll wait for more information. </font>

You are describing an agnositc here. Atheists actually have more in common with theists in that they both have come to form a belief about God. The only difference is that the atheist believes there is no God, while the theists believe there is.

[/ QUOTE ]


permission to scream?