Now I know what its like to play against me

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
A check/raise bluff is only good if you can feel comfortable your opponent is weak, which would be hard for him to do with that K out there. So my thinking would be he would need a legitimate hand to raise you with, in which case I would gladly lay down 10-10.

[/ QUOTE ]

K X X

is actually a very good flop to CR bluff with.

Think about a typical raising range for a MP player.
-Now assume they will continuation bet 100% of the time when checked too.
-How often do you think they will calla C/R if they dont have TP or better?

Looks profitable to me

[Slow Play Ray]

[ QUOTE ]
I havent posted my line yet, but yes there are times in a HU spot late in a tourney where I will give a free card on a drawish board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this - however, this is not one of those situations for me. There are just way too many scare cards that could fall on the turn when you're holding 1010...I stand by my original thoughts; you really have to find out where you stand in this hand right here and now.

[Nordberg]

But he is probably never folding a king right? So you can check the flop and raise the turn if a non club/non ace comes- I thought about that line, but if he will push with more hands than he calls with, you might as well get as much value out of his bluffs or semi-bluffs as possible. For instance, if he will push with A9 overtop of a cont bet, we might as well have him put his stack in there instead of folding to our turn push.

Taking the check on the flop/push most turn line, we make it easiest on ourselves. We avoid calling off a huge chunk of chips getting a really bad price some of the time drawing to only 2 outs... but we also lose value when we're ahead. But if we bet the flop and always call jams we extract more value from the hand.

Btw, I agree the bet pot button sucks. I like playing this hand a certain way that has been pointed out does not work well on UB, checking the flop, calling the turn with the intention of calling most rivers.

[rockythecat99]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea behind checking the flop is to structure the betting so we are the ones putting in the last raise. Thats because typical pretty good aggressive players are more than willing to raise light, but much less willing to make thin calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your plan here is to check the flop and check raise on any blank on the turn to get an extra bet from him? Hmm. interesting. But what if a Q/J/club comes. Do you still check raise him or is this more of a check call situation

[Sluss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he's aggro, he likely bluffs the turn if we check through here. so why not get extra chips out of him when we're ahead?


[/ QUOTE ] Of course half the deck is a bad card for us.


[/ QUOTE ]and villian as well

[/ QUOTE ]

However, BB is in "first bluff" position. When heads up I think it is sometimes to your advantage to be OOP.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he's aggro, he likely bluffs the turn if we check through here. so why not get extra chips out of him when we're ahead?


[/ QUOTE ] Of course half the deck is a bad card for us.


[/ QUOTE ]and villian as well

[/ QUOTE ]

However, BB is in "first bluff" position. When heads up I think it is sometimes to your advantage to be OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

except in this hand, where we get to dictate the action by forcing him to put in a bet and then make a call of an all-in. if he decides to check, we can either bet or if its scary enough check it through and keep the pot hella-small.

[LethalRose]

what do you mean by aggressive? Whats his hand range for calling here? does he defend his blinds a lot? how often does he lead out?

I put his range at A/x, K/x, even some suited connectors. I think you're ahead here 2/3's of the time so id probably bet about 1/2 the pot. I myself would put him on a small PP smaller than a king, so you if you get aggressive he may lay it down, depends on how he plays. A check here by an aggressive opponent is either a setup for a checkraise, or your ahead. aggressive opponents tend not to trap a lot since they bet no matter what they are holding. a check here would arise my suspicions that he is going for a c/r or he respects your raises and is check/folding with 99

I would probably bet and try to represent the king. checking the flop here would scream "I have no king"

somewhat tricky hand, being aggressive is good, bet. you can get away from this one and still be in good shape.

[scott8]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I ask since you are willing to give a free card on a draw heavy board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I havent posted my line yet, but yes there are times in a HU spot late in a tourney where I will give a free card on a drawish board.

As for it playing into an aggresive player's game, it certainly does (I'm an aggresive player which is probably why I was considering it).

[/ QUOTE ]

So then a few points/questions.

I am saying that it is not correct to give an aggressive player a free card on a draw heavy board, unless you are giving up on the hand unimproved on the turn. (This assumes aggressive players will bet any turn checked through).


I understand you have not given your line, but it seems you were advocating a check with the last raise philosophy? If you do check, what cards do you raise the turn with? Or don't raise with if easier?

I think, that while there are certainly times to give a free card late in a tourney, you can't here. Even aggressive players can fold to a MP continuation bet.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you mean by aggressive? Whats his hand range for calling here? does he defend his blinds a lot? how often does he lead out?

I put his range at A/x, K/x, even some suited connectors. I think you're ahead here 2/3's of the time so id probably bet about 1/2 the pot. I myself would put him on a small PP smaller than a king, so you if you get aggressive he may lay it down, depends on how he plays. A check here by an aggressive opponent is either a setup for a checkraise, or your ahead.

I would probably bet and try to represent the king. checking the flop here would scream "I have no king"

somewhat tricky hand, being aggressive is good, bet. you can get away from this one and still be in good shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think we want to get away from this one, though

[Sluss]

[ QUOTE ]
except in this hand, where we get to dictate the action by forcing him to put in a bet and then make a call of an all-in. if he decides to check, we can either bet or if its scary enough check it through and keep the pot hella-small.


[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure I can come over the top of a club here or even an A. But it is close on the A and I probably could on a Q or J with no problem.

I like this hand better on the flop where only a small % of his holdings are going to call my push.