Big pot poker

[jrz1972]

I want to fold out the following stuff:

Gutshots.
Overcards.
The A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Bare diamonds
Pocket 7s, 6s, 3s, and 2s
Any hand containing an 8
Any hand containing a 5
Any hand containing a 4

Many of those hands (or some combination, like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) would be correct to call one bet, but not two.

There are more draws out there than just the obvious two-card flush draw. Just because I can't fold out A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] doesn't mean I shouldn't try to fold out the other stuff.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to fold out the following stuff:

Gutshots.
Overcards.
The A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Bare diamonds

Many of those hands (or some combination, like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) would be correct to call one bet, but not two.

There are more draws out there than just the obvious two-card flush draw. Just because I can't fold out A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] doesn't mean I shouldn't try to fold out the other stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand folding out these hands when we ourselves are drawing to 5-outs. Your raise to knock out these players only makes sense if you a) hit your 5-outer and b) they hit their redraw (4-outer). Pretty small percentage we're talking about.

Overcards? How does folding out QJo help me in the case that Villain is holding AA here?

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
thats the precise reason betting, and getting raised sucks, we would be upmost definitely behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's already one guy in this thread who's openly said that he would raise overcards on this flop. I think you're underestimating your chances after a raise.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to fold out the following stuff:

Gutshots.
Overcards.
The A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Bare diamonds
Pocket 7s, 6s, 3s, and 2s
Any hand containing an 8
Any hand containing a 5
Any hand containing a 4

Many of those hands (or some combination, like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) would be correct to call one bet, but not two.

There are more draws out there than just the obvious two-card flush draw. Just because I can't fold out A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] doesn't mean I shouldn't try to fold out the other stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

All these people called 2 bets cold preflop. Do you really think they're going to fold ANY kind of a draw for 2 bets now the that pot is getting that much bigger?

Out of your whole list there you might fold the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (big deal) and overcards if they don't have a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I just don't see how it's worth it yet. If we catch a good card on the turn THEN we can start worrying about trying to fold people out. Don't bloat the pot on the flop to keep everyone in for the rest of the hand.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
All these people called 2 bets cold preflop. Do you really think they're going to fold ANY kind of a draw for 2 bets now the that pot is getting that much bigger?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Many of these hands are making a mistake by calling two cold, however, and I want to give them the chance to err.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All these people called 2 bets cold preflop. Do you really think they're going to fold ANY kind of a draw for 2 bets now the that pot is getting that much bigger?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Many of these hands are making a mistake by calling two cold, however, and I want to give them the chance to err.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that we're drawing ourselves which is an important point. I checked in twodimes, folding out a gutshot here increases our equity by about 1.5%, not worth the price of a SB IMO.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
thats the precise reason betting, and getting raised sucks, we would be upmost definitely behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's already one guy in this thread who's openly said that he would raise overcards on this flop. I think you're underestimating your chances after a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I feel you are overestimating your chances on a draw heavy board against a bunch of bad players. Face it, this is a BPF (bad player flop) and they're going to take it down more often than you will....especially if you give them incentive to hang around to the river.

[droolie]

I would check call here.

With this flop pretty much everybody at the table will have a pair, a decent draw or at least two overcards. The pfr will probably only raise if he has you beat and almost everybodyyou would want to fold will call anyways. Protecting this hand is just not that realistic an option. Over half the deck will make us want to check the turn.

If we check call we are in ideal position to C/R the field if our 5 outs hit. Plus we will probably get to close the action if nobody else loves their hand or draw and the pf better bets his hand. We might get to see the turn cheaply too.

Raising isn't terrible. I just think it doesn't accomplish much in the way of protecting and you give up some strategic options on the turn since so many cards cripple your hand and you will be OOP.

[jrz1972]

Well, pretty much everybody has chimed in against me here, so maybe I should go back and review on this point. It seemed very straightforward to me but maybe I am overlooking something.

Just for the record, is there anybody who would NOT raise this if the PFR were on their right?

[GTSamIAm]

Bet into UTG+1, hoping he'll raise.