100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

[faquewdikhed]

did anyone mention bad position in an unraised 4way pot?

[raptor517]

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did anyone mention bad position in an unraised 4way pot?

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quite possibly the most important aspect of this hand.. holla

[fnord_too]

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also, im not trying to justify my argument with results. i still think its the best line to take even if he flipped over A5. holla

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and i still think you are wrong even with main villain having two pair (which he played poorly).

[raptor517]

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also, im not trying to justify my argument with results. i still think its the best line to take even if he flipped over A5. holla

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and i still think you are wrong even with main villain having two pair (which he played poorly).

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yes i grasped that from yer other 3 posts telling me i was wrong. you dont back it up with enough information as to WHY though. keep goin though, this how we all get better. holla

[citanul]

and a good morning to you mr grumpypuss.

citanul

[fnord_too]

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also, im not trying to justify my argument with results. i still think its the best line to take even if he flipped over A5. holla

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and i still think you are wrong even with main villain having two pair (which he played poorly).

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yes i grasped that from yer other 3 posts telling me i was wrong. you dont back it up with enough information as to WHY though. keep goin though, this how we all get better. holla

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I was replying as I read, so I got a little redundant. Here's why I don't like a check raise here:

1. It may get checked through, which sucks on this board. There is a real chance of that since no one has showed any interest, and there could be a couple of non top pairs or gutshots etc. out there.
2. If you check raise a normal bet (T15 is just weak sause, if you can expect someone to bet that, then sure, c/r away) you are looking at putting t125ish into the pot. If villain comes over the top you have to let go and cost yourself t80 more than if you bet and let go to a raise. If you c/r and get called, now the pot is a lot bigger, and you are OOP with a marginal hand. Very tricky to play that going forward. Sure you may pick up the pot right there (and get a few extra chips in the process), but your raise is not going to really threaten a betters stack and he will have good odds and position to call.
3. (This is a style dependant one) I lead with a lot of hands here, so I am not really giving any real information away other than the flop didn't completely miss me. (I'm not leading with three opponents if I have air, so it does say I have at least a decent draw).

Here's why I don't like a check call here:
1. You don't really get a lot of information. (Assuming that the better will shut down with a weak ace or second pair or a draw isn't something I would do without a read. Position rules here, and without defining your hand some it is going to be hard to define villains.)
2. You invite overcalls. This is a bad board to let hangers on hang on. If you check call a 3/4 pot size bet, the next to act is getting 3.3:1 on his call directly.
3. (repeat from above) I hate giving a free card here.

Here's why I don't like a check fold:
1. I am almost positive it is -EV in terms of TC and the cost of a bet here is such a small percentage of your stack I believe it is -EV in terms of cashing equity. Of the three lines mentioned here, I dislike this one the least.

To summerize (yeah, I know I can ramble) with 3 opponents and a cordinated board that is likely to hit limpers to some degree, I want to resolve the hand quickly and cheaply. I think you have good equity here, so that resolution should not be check folding. Check raising violates the cheaply part and check calling does not really resolve anything.

edit - my grammer sucks

[raptor517]

so basically fnord, you want to bet 45 and let everything come along with you while building a pot and not being able to protect your hand? not exactly the way i would want to play this. think of it as a limit hand. if you lead, you encourage calls from drawing hands. if u check raise, you knock out the str draw that ended up winning. thats as simple as i can make the argument. leading is probably the worst line to take. u get everything in there.

actually, by checking and calling, you receive quite a bit of information. i found out that someone behind me was along for a draw, and i found that out very cheaply. by checking again on the turn, the original bettors continuation bet told me he had at LEAST a relatively strong holding, meaning at least an ace. now, my ace is quite good, and likely better than any ace he would have, however, in the 55s, a lot of people will slow down after getting ANY action wit ha weak ace, as they know their hand becomes extremely weaker the more multiway the pot is.

as for leading, you bet 45, obv the str draw calls, then what happens if lp min raises? you cant actually fold if your logic was to lead into the field. he could be min raising with any number of hands. a weaker ace to see where hes at, a str draw to get a free turn card, etc. what is your plan on the turn if called in one spot? and two? you cant play poker on such a basic level. you have to look down the road as to what will happen on later streets.

this thread is fun. holla

[Newt_Buggs]

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I was replying as I read, so I got a little redundant. Here's why I don't like a check raise here:

1. It may get checked through, which sucks on this board. There is a real chance of that since no one has showed any interest, and there could be a couple of non top pairs or gutshots etc. out there.
2. If you check raise a normal bet (T15 is just weak sause, if you can expect someone to bet that, then sure, c/r away) you are looking at putting t125ish into the pot. If villain comes over the top you have to let go and cost yourself t80 more than if you bet and let go to a raise. If you c/r and get called, now the pot is a lot bigger, and you are OOP with a marginal hand. Very tricky to play that going forward. Sure you may pick up the pot right there (and get a few extra chips in the process), but your raise is not going to really threaten a betters stack and he will have good odds and position to call.
3. (This is a style dependant one) I lead with a lot of hands here, so I am not really giving any real information away other than the flop didn't completely miss me. (I'm not leading with three opponents if I have air, so it does say I have at least a decent draw).


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1. If it gets checked through you just got a pretty good idea of where you are for free. You probably have the others crushed, and this isn't a heavy draw board so a free card isn't that bad.
2. I wouldn't checkraise t125, more like t75 which will get action from hands weaker than yours and keep the pot small.
3. Anyone with working brain cells (which sadly sometimes doens't seem like everyone) knows that if you're leading into a 3 other people from the SB that you have at least an ace.

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this thread is fun. holla

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couldn't agree more, this is a great discussion you've got going raptor.

[johnnybeef]

alright, here is my analysis...people rarely open limp ak or aq in the 55s, and because the pot is not big, i dont see the second limper limping ak or aq either. you are likely ahead, so forchrisakes lead the flop and get some information back. the pot is still very small, so it will be easy to get away from.

[raptor517]

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alright, here is my analysis...people rarely open limp ak or aq in the 55s, and because the pot is not big, i dont see the second limper limping ak or aq either. you are likely ahead, so forchrisakes lead the flop and get some information back. the pot is still very small, so it will be easy to get away from.

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who said i was worried about AQ or AK? hmm? holla