Why choose Limit over No-Limit?

[baronzeus]

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I 4-table the six max games and I don't seem to get anywhere near 400 hands per hour, I think I usually see around 250, maybe 300. I haven't really timed it exactly, so maybe I'm off, but that just sounds high.

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check pt if you dont believe me. in the session tab it should say your "MTT ratio" and "H/hr". Divide H/hr by MTT ratio.

[Jurollo]

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Limit = People who aren't very good at math

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This just simply isn't even close to true, if anything it is the exact opposite.
~Justin

[Fuchida]

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Why wouldn't you want someone to pay you off with a drawing hand with your made hand. If someone is drawing to their flush he has a 35% chance of hitting it, that means 65% of the time you win. This is especially nice when the drawer isn't getting the odds to call. So for every 3 times I'm against someone drawing to the flush, they pay me off twice to me paying them off once. Thats +EV bro.

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For your sake I hope this is a troll but I'll assume you really believe that.

In a limit game, you cannot control the odds you give someone on a draw (unless you are in early position and you check hoping someone later will bet so you can make the rest of the field face a double bet - even that is tricky).

In a no-limit game you can control the odds you give your opponent. If he is on a flush draw, then make him pay for it. If you give him bad odds then either you take the pot down right away or he makes a mistake by calling (even if he wins). Implied odds are a significant factor in NL so you need to take this into account and pay careful attention to stack sizes.

The problem with limit is that most of the times players are correct to chase because the size of the bets is so small in relation to the pot size. In effect, bad players are often accidently playing correctly. In NL, bad players rarely play correctly by accident and are made to pay for their lack of knowledge.

In the rather strange example you give above, you may win 65% of the time compared to 35% but that is completely irrelevant. What is important is the odds the chaser has in relation to his bet. If there is $100 in the pot on the turn and you bet $10, he is getting 11-1 to call with his flush draw. He will only hit 1 in 5 times but he is getting 11-1 on his bet. A very good investment for him. If you have the made hand, the $110 in the pot is currently yours and you are laying odds like a bookmaker to someone with only a 20% shot at it but you are giving him 11-1

If this was no limit and assuming you will fold if the third suit comes, you could bet $50, giving him 3-1 on his 4-1 shot. If he calls, you have +EV whether you win or lose. You are now laying good odds on the $150 that is currently yours. If he folds, you keep the money. Either way, you win.

Limit holdem is pretty much a hand holding competition. Best hand wins most of the time. You can win by playing tight, knowing pot odds and sticking in some semi-bluffs. In NL, you can win regularly with the worst hand if you learn to read people.

[Fuchida]

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in an attempt to make a little more insightful post than the one that's linked here:

at this point I don't think I could learn to play a decent game of NL largely because of the river. in limit, if you suspect a bluff on the river, you can call with something like A high, figuring you'll win more than 1 in 10. in NL you have to be disciplined and fold. I'm curious by nature. I like to know what they have. I don't like to be bluffed. and any game where an overpair or TPTK isn't that strong doesn't seem too interesting to me.

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It isn't a case of disciplined or curious. Based on the betting pattern throughout the hand and your knowledge of the player, you decide if he is bluffing or not and make the call/fold decision. If you would always fold in that situation (disciplined in your view), I would always bet at you.

An overpair or TP/TK can be a strong hand in NL just as a A high flush on a paired board can be a weak hand. You would always call one bet in limit in that situation but what if someone puts a thousand dollar bet in when the board pairs on the end. It depends on the situation and who you are playing against. Did they just make a full house or do they have zip and called on the turn just to make this move if the board paired (which I have seen more than once). Of course, if they were bluffing they would have to be sure you would fold an ace high flush in that situation so you have to consider how they view your table image. Forget all that in limit - just call the one bet and find out.

If I figured out you got concerned with TP, I would bet heavily against you if I decided that is what you had. What I have is irrelevant.

Limit is decided by cards. NL is decided by people. That's why I prefer it because I don't always have good cards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[BluEsiNsOuL]

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Forget all that in limit - just call the one bet and find out.


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I believe that a good limit player will still do all those things you said for a big bet.

[bills217]

This is a very interesting debate.

In my short time at these forums, it seems like most questions are met with consensus answers backed by sound mathematical reasoning.

But within this thread and the other linked thread debating this topic, there is no clear consensus, on profitability, game quality, variance, etc., of playing limit vs. NL.

The camps seem pretty evenly split between players who all seem to be knowledgeable...very confusing to someone like me who's new at these forums.

[Rudbaeck]

An often quoted limit bankroll is 300big bets. A very good limit player will win something like 3BB/100 hands.

A reasonable bankroll for NL is 3000big blinds, or 1500 "big bets". To make the same hourly wage on the same bankroll he'd have to win 15PTBB/100 hands. (PTBB is PokerTracker Big Bet, or 2big blinds. As PT uses the equivalent limit 'big bet' even for NL calculations.)

I'm not a 3BB/100 winner in limit, nor am I a 15BB/100 winner in no limit. But I am almost exactly a five times as big winner in no limit as in limit texas hold'em. And using BruceZs formula for bankroll shows me needing about a five times as big a bankroll for the same blind size in no limit compared to limit.

I do still play some no limit texas from time to time. It's always good to work on a few side games for when you are playing live. The wealth of online table selection isn't exactly there in even the biggest live card rooms, let alone smaller casinos.

I also play quite a bit of PLO/8, and some PLO. On occasion I play some 7cs. I really should learn 7cs/8, and work some more on my 3D27.

But for grinding out the income... Well, I can comfortably play 8 tables of limit hold'em, but I struggle with 4 tables of no limit hold'em. As I make almost exactly the same amount per hand in either form the choice is pretty darn clear for me.

[qsdaddy]

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I avg. 125 hands per hour and my bb/100 = 4.35 after 180k hands. Like I said above I play 2-4 handed 15-30 thru 30-60.

[/ QUOTE ] You average 125 hands an hour at 1 table? Even 2-4 handed, isn't that alot? Are they turbo tables?

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125 hands per hour is on the low side. I have many games (heads up) where we get about 160 hands an hour.

[Fuchida]

Interesting. I thihk there are actually two debates here.

1) Is NL or Limit the more challenging form of poker and in which form does the better player have the greater advantage.

2) If you are multi-tabling, is NL or Limit the more profitable overall, taking into account the number of tables you can play in each form.

The answer might be different for 1) and 2).

The third question for me is though, which is more likely to drive you mad in the shortest time and that is undoubtably limit for me. I not only play NL because I think I have a greater advantage over weaker players but I also find it easier to play more NL tables than Limit tables and playing limit both bores and frustrates me.

I think the first question could probably be argued out but the second and third are purely subjective.

[hedxcold]

i like to play limit online and no limit live. i found i have a harder time putting my opponent on a hand in no limit online then i do in person