JJ Hand

[NYCNative]

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One more thing ... think about this.

You raise JJ UTG, you are called by the button with AsKs. The flop comes down 9-4-2 rainbow. You bet and he folds.

Next hand you both have the same hands ... you limp in, and the button raises. The flop comes 9-4-2, you check, he bets and you raise, and he folds.

Which strategy won more money ?

[/ QUOTE ]The best response to this can be found here, IMHO.

[Kirkrrr]

How bad is the villain? If he's mediocre, I'd check-raise the turn, especially after that idiotic bet.

But that's just me.

Kirk R.

[imported_anacardo]

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I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you need to stop reading limit hold'em books and then repeating their entire contents in a NL forum. The sooner you realize that the games are played differently, the better off you will be.

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What are you implying? Everything he just said seems spot-on, more or less applicable to any hold'em betting structure.

[fuzzbox]

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I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you need to stop reading limit hold'em books and then repeating their entire contents in a NL forum. The sooner you realize that the games are played differently, the better off you will be.

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What are you implying? Everything he just said seems spot-on, more or less applicable to any hold'em betting structure.

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Everything who said ?

[fuzzbox]

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How do you turn it into 44 by limping it ? That is nonsense.

[/ QUOTE ]If you limp you are playing it for set value, just like you would two 4s.


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Just because you limp, does not mean that you wont flop an overpair. You almost never flop an overpair with 44, but you frequently flop an overpair with JJ. The difference between you raising, flopping an overpair - betting and getting called, and you limping, flopping an overpair - betting and getting called is extremely substantial.

In case 1 - you raise - all the crap hands fold (apart from donks) - and the caller (who has position) - is much much more likely to have a better hand than one pair. Even if he doesnt - the pot is bigger - so you are often faced with a stack decision on the flop/turn/river in a big pot out of position with an overpair on an innocuous looking board.
In case 2 - you could be getting action from weaker top pairs - but also the pot is smaller, so if you face stiff resistance then you are less inclinced to go for your stack.

Its not about winning pots and ensuring from the start that your perceived "best hand" stands up.
Its about winning money - which includes putting yourself into good situations - that are the most likely to generate profit.

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Do you ever limp AA up front and just smooth call a raise ? I know I do (sometimes).

[/ QUOTE ]Never. I will limp in EP with rockets and then make a big reraise, however.

See, I like to define my hands. Limping with JJ and you get raised - you did not define your hand. You can be against two overs, a smaller PP or a bigger PP.


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Its much better for me if my *opponents* define *their* hands, rather than I define mine. If I raise UTG and they know that I have a big pair, and that I will stack off if I have an overpair - then that is most certainly not good for me. I want my opponents confused - not certain what is going on.
Limping JJ and getting raised is fine - sure I might be against AA-QQ, and we can find that out later in the hand - but we might also be against AK and on a flop of 942 we can snap off a continuation bet, and win some money.
If we raise, and get reraised - then we often have to fold (and do we know for sure what reraiser has ? He could be reraising with AK/AQ so how have we changed things by raising ? other than by making the pot bigger).

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When the flop hits you don't know where you stand whether there are overs on board or not.


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How do you know where you stand if you raise pf ?
If one over comes and you bet and are called ... is that it ? Do you give up ? What about two ? Do you bet or just give up right away ? Thats the thing - you havent a clue where you stand - because you are first to act.

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Besides, your Aces analogy doesn't wash because Aces are a LOT easier to play (although harder to get away from, admittedly) because they are a lot stronger than Jacks. Jacks are the fifth best starting hand, but like AQ and AJ, they are vulnerable.


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All hands are vulnerable. The question is - do you want to build a big pot out of position with a hand that can turn nasty very quickly - if you bet the flop - are called - then you have absolutely zero clue as to your opponents hand - regardless of whats on the flop.

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Vulnerable but a lot easier to play with a raise.


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How is it easier to play with a raise UP FRONT ? I contend that its HARDER to play with a raise up front.
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If you raise JJ, and somebody reraises ... then you are in a really horrible position, and you have lost the chance to flop a set (or you pay too high a price for it, or you call and throw off chips on a 9-high board).

[/ QUOTE ]How so? If you get reraised with Jacks, you can get away from the hand the 12% of the time that someone has a bigger PP than you relatively cheaply or you can call and then see if you get a set but at least in this case you KNOW that you might be behind even if the flop doesn't have an over!

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Just because its the fifth best starting hand, doesnt force me to play a big pot out of position with it. In position I raise this hand frequently - but OOP, well Im a little less inclinced to create a difficult situation for myself.

[/ QUOTE ]By not raising, you just made it a lot harder to play.

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How - how is it harder to play with no raise. Its simple for me - I can limp - and see a flop - if flop is good - I can bet/check-raise/check-call. If some1 raised and I like the flop I can do all those things also. If I dont like the flop I can check-fold and it cost me hardly anything at all.

End of story - a very cheap way to play a very difficult hand out of position.
How is it harder ? Im not planning on ramming my JJ down the throat of a KQ4 board, or even a A75 board. Thus its easy to play on those boards - check fold.

[josie_wales]

As I read this thread I am apalled that I acutally see people say that you should limp UTG with Jacks.

I am not saying that you should NEVER limp UTG PF with JJ, but as you standard operating procedure?

Once you limp, it encourages other limpers for a couple of reasons (1) there is more money in the pot (2) they might figure you for a pretty solid hand and limp with a busting hand

You dont want to play Jacks, out of position against a pile of limpers.

Raise it up, try to get it to a 2-3 person flop.

YES, sometimes you will have to release it on the flop...Sure you will run into poor flops with it....Yes you will see the dreaded A-K-8 all hearts flop with you not having a heart.

But that is not the point. Raise JJ. Not every time, but certainly more than you limp with it.

I am probably at about a 80-20 raise to limp UTG ratio.

I would really like to hear a solid explanation as to why limping UTG with the 4th best hand in the game is the right play.

jw

[TheWorstPlayer]

Except against tough opponents, if I'm limping JJ UTG, it's to limp re-raise. Against tough opponents, I may limp it to mix it up and protect future limps but never at SSNL. They will call a raise with too many dominated hands and overplay top pair. So theoretically I like limping it just to keep opponents off balance, but at SSNL I never do.

[amoeba]

I think villain has quads.