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#51
06-30-2005, 02:30 AM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
enough of this technical "he mucked his hand"... "he didn't muck his hand"... "once they hit the pile face-down"... "the cards speak only if it is tabled"... this is all bullshit
the best hand wins the pot, which in this case was the J of clubs, not the Q of spades. the guy with the Q knew he was angle shooting -- it is clear because of the reaction he gave the OP after the hand. enough technical bullshit, let the best hand win like it's supposed to. 
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#52
06-30-2005, 03:35 AM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
Listen buddy. Mucking cards plays a part in poker games. You're permitted to fold your hand face down and not give any information. Unfortunately if you fold it face down then its mucked and you can't win the pot. This is an important but very simple concept. I see many players who turn every single hand up at the river in case they missed something. Maybe you should do this if you think you will screw up.
Today I played a hand where I had top pair and the river brought a flush. Previously Quiet guy in the hand bets and I call, and he declares Ace high. And I wait, and he shows the ace of spades, and I wait, and he shows a non spade. So I table the winner. Just wait to see cards because cards speak gosh darnit.
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#53
06-30-2005, 03:49 AM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
[ QUOTE ]
enough of this technical "he mucked his hand"... "he didn't muck his hand"... "once they hit the pile face-down"... "the cards speak only if it is tabled"... this is all bullshit [/ QUOTE ] Actually, these are the rules, and they are posted on the walls of every cardroom. They are very clear in the interpretation. Have you ever been in a cardroom and read them? No offense, but the above statement is absolute crap. [ QUOTE ] the best hand wins the pot, which in this case was the J of clubs, not the Q of spades [/ QUOTE ] Yes, if they are tabled. You are absolutely right. Sorry, just flashing your hand doesn't cut it. The hand isn't over until the pot is pushed. Is it that hard to understand? Do we need to draw a diagram? Like my question, feel free to snap the guys cards out of his hand and table them for him and see how well that goes over. I dare you. Really, I'm sure no one would call you on it. b
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#54
06-30-2005, 04:03 AM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
[ QUOTE ]
the best hand wins the pot, which in this case was the J of clubs, not the Q of spades. the guy with the Q knew he was angle shooting -- it is clear because of the reaction he gave the OP after the hand. [/ QUOTE ] I have ruled many times that the best hand wins. That is not the case with the J of clubs here, if just flashed for a second as he was mucking, maybe it was the J of spades and the OP saw it wrong. This player made no claim for the pot so he has no recourse in this case. Also note if the player wiht his Q would ahve said "Q high flush" the player with the J wins the pot by rule if he mucks his hand.
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#55
06-30-2005, 04:23 AM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
[ QUOTE ]
Also note if the player with his Q would have said "Q high flush" the player with the J wins the pot by rule if he mucks his hand. [/ QUOTE ] what is this rule? does it apply even if you call 'straight' when you have a flush as well?
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#56
06-30-2005, 01:40 PM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
[ QUOTE ]
what is this rule? does it apply even if you call 'straight' when you have a flush as well? [/ QUOTE ] If you intentionally overcall your hand and your opponent mucks they win the pot. So no, if you call straight and have have a flush your hand is live becasue calling straight could not have caused a player that can beat a flush to fold.
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#57
06-30-2005, 04:56 PM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
If it was the Jack of spades, then the ace he mucked could have won the hand.
Angleshooting. Especially when it is the 3 seat vs. the 8 seat and the 3 seat knew the 8 seat didn't have the queen of clubs.
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#58
07-01-2005, 03:53 AM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] what is this rule? does it apply even if you call 'straight' when you have a flush as well? [/ QUOTE ] If you intentionally overcall your hand and your opponent mucks they win the pot. So no, if you call straight and have have a flush your hand is live becasue calling straight could not have caused a player that can beat a flush to fold. [/ QUOTE ] It the guy would have said "Queen high flush" and everything else happened the same, it would have been an interesting decision, but I think the A-J would have still lost the hand. The common rule is that the casino has the right to do what's best for the game, and that means if someone intentionally miss-calls their hand, a mucked hand which was flashed can be declared the winner. The problem here would be that the Q was a spade, and the guy could just claim he misread his hand. It would have been a tough decision for the floorman. Un-mucking a hand is a rare and significant event in a cardroom, but if it was the Q of hearts and he says "Queen high flush", then it would be pretty easy for the floor to award the pot to the mucked A-J. That's the way I've heard it explained by a few floormen anyway. Sparks
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#59
07-01-2005, 04:23 AM
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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
[ QUOTE ]
if someone intentionally miss-calls their hand, a mucked hand which was flashed can be declared the winner. The problem here would be that the Q was a spade, and the guy could just claim he misread his hand. [/ QUOTE ] The floor should consider the experience of the player but in this case there needs to be strong evidence that they did not intentionally miscall their hand. A floorperson that has to rule on this point should start with a presumption that it was intentional and look for any reasons to believe it was not intentional.
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