Schoonmaker "Don't Quit Your Day Job" (yeah, it's long)

[chief444]

From what I've seen it's basically smaller sites. You have to be willing to play shorthanded and at various limits. You do get 100% rakeback I believe but honestly I think you're better off just 8-tabling Party as you do.

[QTip]

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From what I've seen it's basically smaller sites. You have to be willing to play shorthanded and at various limits. You do get 100% rakeback I believe but honestly I think you're better off just 8-tabling Party as you do.

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I see, thanks.

[flair1239]

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Have you looked into propping?

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I've not looked into propping yet. Is that something party offers?

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Checkout the ad at the bottom of Bonuswhores.

[bozlax]

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As a side note I would not even consider it, until my daughter is in her final years of college (which will be about 20 years for me). If I did not have a child it would be tempting to give it a go, but as it is I am not that confident in my abilities, where I am willing to mess with her future.

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This is actually a primary point, IMO. I don't know OP, but if you have people depending on you and your income, then I don't think you can take a flier on anything.

If, OTOH, you're single, in your 20s, and have little consumer debt (car paid off, no credit cards, etc.), then what the hell? I frequently find myself wishing that I'd taken more chances in the days when I could. Worse comes to worst you eat triple-water-Ramen (ramen noodles with 3 times as much water as the instructions indicate to stretch them) for a couple of weeks or take a nametag-and-hairnet job to get back on your feet.

[Gimp]

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[Al Schoonmaker]

To preserve the context of my remarks, I will insert them directly into parts of your text IN CAPS. Please don't regard it as "shouting." It's a standard technique.

1. You probably won't make it.

"Unless your are an excellent player with a big bankroll and extreme discipline, you haven't got a chance...

My answer: I don't think he's considering the drastic impact of being able to play 8+ tables online and also get rakeback for all those tables."
YOU ARE CORRECT. WHEN I WROTE POP, NOBODY WAS PLAYING 8+ TABLES.

2. There's little money and no future.

He talks about how many professions make much more than the big names, and many pros have had to go on to get "regular jobs".

My answer: This book was written in 2000, so I think poker was really starting to spread it's wings in society. Again, I'm not sure he's taking online into consideration, but the future of online poker or rakeback, I think, is something to seriously consider.
AGAIN, YOU'RE CORRECT. THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT IT IS immeasurably EASIER TO MAKE IT TODAY AS A PRO. I HAVE SAID SO IN SEVERAL THREADS ON OUR FORUMS. I HAVE OFTEN QUOTED FROM SSH THAT IT'S NO BIG DEAL TO MAKE 50K PER YEAR PLAYING 3/6. HOWEVER, 50K IS NOT MUCH MONEY.

I'm not sure I have an answer that I'm happy with for either topic, but it's hard to imagine things changing in the very near future.

BY CHANCE, I'M WRITING A SERIES FOR CARD PLAYER, "IT'S A GREAT PARTY, BUT..." ALL PARTIES (BOOMS) END, AND SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW CLEANING UP WILL GO BUST WHEN THE PARTY IS OVER. THEY think THEY PLAY WELL, BUT DON'T REALIZE THAT THE only REASON THEY WIN IS THAT THE GAMES ARE SO SOFT. SOONER OR LATER, THE SUPPLY OF NEW FISH WILL DRY UP, AND MANY OF THE OLD FISH WILL EITHER QUIT OR LEARN HOW TO PLAY.

THE MESSAGE OF THOSE ARTICLES IS: ENJOY THE PARTY, BUT GET READY FOR THE TOUGHER TIMES THAT WILL certainly COME.

3. It's extremely unhealthy.

He talks about a large amount of hours sitting in uncomfortable chairs, smokey rooms, no exercise and a diet of unhealthy food.

My answer: Again, I think he's talking about people playing live.
OF COURSE, I WAS.
I'm playing at home, in a big leather chair, no smoke, any healthy food I want, and the opportunity to take plenty of breaks for exercise. Exercise will be a part of my regular, daily routine. There's a YMCA down the road from my place, and my plan is to get a membership and bet there at least 3 times/week, which is more exercise then I get now in my cubicle all day. I CANNOT COUNT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE -- INCLUDING ME -- WHO ARE GOING TO GET FIT BY DIETING AND EXERCISING. MOST OF THEM DON'T DO IT, AND AGAIN I INCLUDE MYSELF. DON'T TALK ABOUT IT. DO IT.

4. It's a dreary life.

He talks about long hours at the table, rejected by society, eating at the table, stress of unpredictable income, etc.

My answer: Again, I think all of these relate to someone just playing live. I think I answered all these in the other point he made.
NO, YOU HAVE NOT. YOU HAVE NOT DEALT WITH THE ISSUE THAT HAS OFTEN BEEN DISCUSSED HERE: THE WAY OTHERS SEE YOU.

LET ME GET PERSONAL. MY CHILDREN ARE HORRIFED THAT I PLAY AND WRITE ABOUT POKER. THEY USED TO BRAG ABOUT THEIR SUPER-RESPECTABLE FATHER (PROFESSOR, OWNER OF AN INTERNATIONAL CONSULTING COMPANY). NOW THEY DON'T MENTION WHAT I DO, AND DON'T WANT ME TO DO SO IN FRONT OF THEIR FRIENDS.

READ MY ARTICLE, "NOBODY UNDERSTANDS US," AT CARDPLAYER.COM. ALSO, LOOK AT THE THREADS ABOUT DAMAGED RELATIONSHIPS, FEAR OF TELLING FAMILY WHAT POSTERS DO, ETC. THESE SUBJECTS COME UP ALL THE TIME ON THE PSYCHOLOGY FORUM.

Why I want to go pro:
2. I'm completely convinced that I can easily make twice what I make at my current job.FOR HOW LONG?
THAT IS THE critical QUESTION, AND I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER. I DO KNOW THAT COUNTLESS EXCELLENT PLAYERS WHO ONCE MADE BIG BUCKS ENDED UP STRUGGLING TO SURVIVE AT SMALL GAMES. INCLUDED IN THEIR NUMBER IS JOHNNY MOSS, THE GREATEST PLAYER OF HIS ERROR. ARE YOU MORE TALENTED THAN HE WAS?

READ ED MILLER'S ARTICLES ON GOING PRO. IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW HIS ADVICE ON FINANCIAL PLANNING, YOU WILL PROBABLY END UP BUSTED no matter how much money you make.

3. Work for me has never offered any fulfillment through "contributing to something" or anything like that. I've only ever had a job for 1 reason - pay bills.
THAT'S TRUE FOR MOST PEOPLE, AND I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO IT.
4. I think my life will actually have more balance when I'm working on my own. I'm extremely disciplined, and I'm able to make a schedule now that fits things I want to do, like exercise and so forth. GOOD. I HOPE YOU DO IT.

5. If something did go wrong, I have a degree, speak several languages, etc. that stack my resume. I don't think I'll have a tough time getting another good paying job if I don't want to play pro anymore or if something goes wrong.
YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG. READ THE THREADS THAT DEAL WITH THIS SUBJECT. IF YOU HAVE HUGE HOLES IN YOUR RESUME, YOU WILL FIND IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A GOOD JOB IN MOST INDUSTRIES.

ASK ANY PRO OVER FORTY: DID YOU OR YOUR FRIENDS EVER THINK OF TAKING A STRAIGHT JOB? YOU WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY HEAR "YES, BUT I (OR THEY) COULDN'T GET ANYTHING WORTHWHILE. PERSONNEL MANAGERS AND PROSPECTIVE BOSSES WANT TO KNOW, WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING ALL THESE YEARS? IF YOUR ONLY ANSWER IS, "I'VE BEEN PLAYING POKER," YOUR CHANCES OF GETTING A GOOD JOB ARE NEARLY ZERO.
Does all this make sense?

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT MY ARTICLE IS CLEARLY OUT OF DATE. SOME OF THE POINTS I RAISED NO LONGER APPLY.

HOWEVER, SOME OF THEM DO. THE MOST IMPORTANT IS THAT THE LONG-TERM PICTURE IS much LESS POSITIVE THAN THE SHORT-TERM ONE. IF YOU WANT TO TURN PRO, PRINT ED MILLER'S ARTICLES AND TAKE THEM very SERIOUSLY.

I DON'T WANT TO SEE YOU OR ANYONE ELSE LIVING THE WAY SO MANY OLDER PROS LIVE NOW.

THANKS FOR RAISING THIS SUBJECT.

REGARDS,

AL

[chief444]

Thanks for the great response Al.

[krishanleong]

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Thanks for the great response Al.

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Agreed!

Krishan

[chief444]

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BY CHANCE, I'M WRITING A SERIES FOR CARD PLAYER, "IT'S A GREAT PARTY, BUT..." ALL PARTIES (BOOMS) END, AND SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW CLEANING UP WILL GO BUST WHEN THE PARTY IS OVER. THEY think THEY PLAY WELL, BUT DON'T REALIZE THAT THE only REASON THEY WIN IS THAT THE GAMES ARE SO SOFT. SOONER OR LATER, THE SUPPLY OF NEW FISH WILL DRY UP, AND MANY OF THE OLD FISH WILL EITHER QUIT OR LEARN HOW TO PLAY.

THE MESSAGE OF THOSE ARTICLES IS: ENJOY THE PARTY, BUT GET READY FOR THE TOUGHER TIMES THAT WILL certainly COME.


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I just wanted to add in one random thought I had relative to this particular point since I personally feel that this is, or should be, one of the biggest concerns for anyone considering doing what Qtip is. I think although most aspects of online play vs. B&M play are favorable towards online, this is one that actually won't be. Anyone who has played a lot of B&M I'm sure has noticed, as I have, that especially at the lower-mid limits there are a lot of regulars who really don't play well at all. And one of the biggest reasons they continue to play and just accept the losses is the social aspect of B&M play. They know the other regulars and for them the cardroom is almost like the local bar is to many others. This isn't the case online. So if the current poker craze dies down quite a bit, and I suspect it will at some point, the influx of new players will die down with it. And the difference IMO in the games online will be much more drastic than what will be seen at B&M's.

[BoxLiquid]

It's interesting to read this thread. I, like almost everyone on 2+2 have considered going pro. But, after thinking about all the negatives (like what Alan Schoonmaker wrote), I figured it's so much easier said than done. Good luck to all you guys that are going pro. Hopefully, the fish are here to stay for a while.