"Faith"

[rusellmj]

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Your arguements have merit only if they pertain to a vague god who got the ball rolling. I am arguing against the specific beliefs of specific religions.

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Examples, specifically of Christianity please?

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You mean like how the catholic hierarchy put Galileo through the inquisition and placed him under arrest until he died for suggesting that the earth revolved around the sun? Or did you mean something else?

Russ

[Mike]

"The interesting argument has been made..."

I missed this arguement, but so be it, an arguement made is just that.

"But I have two problems with the idea that God wants..."

This is from the intial arguement or you are building on a point of your own?

I don't think God gives a hoot if you or I believe in him or not, just as if it should not matter to yourself that someone reads your books and determines that they are wrong.

It is indeed simplistic and dangerous to put your trust in anything just because someone tells you it is so.

"My second problem occurs when this faith argument extends to a specific religion...."

As you know here in the United States we all speak American English as the primary language of our country. There are numerous flavors of American English depending on where in the country you go. Which one is the real American English, or all they all the real deal with minor variations?

Leading back to American Christainity or even encompassing earths major religions, they all promote the same basic values or ideals with a few variations. It's all the same cake, you just get different slices of it. I am guessing here, but the intent of any variations in a religion belonging to Christianity were created for a specific purpose at that time. When the human race someday inhabits another planet what will be their day of rest (the seventh or sabbath day)? Here on earth it happens after 144 hours. What if the planet we inhabit has a 23 hour day or a 30 hour day? Does the whole God thing get scrapped because the day changed?

This is such a circular post you made, it is so difficult to clarify your thoughts and provide a reasonable answer to them. Religion and faith are not the same creature. That should be obvious. You or I do not need religion to have faith that the information or strategies in the books you publish are indeed true.

Religion is something you do and you practice. It's like a coorporation with rules and values. If you want to be a part of the company you follow those rules and values. Religion is also like owning a car, just because you own a red car does not mean it is better than a blue car of the same make and model.

Faith is something you know internally. If I follow a precept in your book, I know the outcome will always be favorable - hypothetically speaking. I do not need to do anything else you do to make that happen.

Why don't you put a challenge to God and then you will have a basis to perhaps attain proof in a form you need to make it believable? Tell God that if he indeed does exist, make it known to you in a way you will comprehend and understand?

[RJT]

I understand this wasn’t your point but:

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The concept of God is NOT illogical.

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What am I missing?

If the concept of God is not illogical, doesn’t that mean it is logical? If it is logical shouldn’t it be if not totally provable, then at least explainable to some certainty?

I have yet to read or hear of any ontological argument that either doesn’t fall way short or at some point require a leap of faith.

[davelin]

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Your arguements have merit only if they pertain to a vague god who got the ball rolling. I am arguing against the specific beliefs of specific religions.

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Examples, specifically of Christianity please?

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You mean like how the catholic hierarchy put Galileo through the inquisition and placed him under arrest until he died for suggesting that the earth revolved around the sun? Or did you mean something else?

Russ

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The bible never purports (did I just make that word up?) that the earth was the center of the universe. In other words that was never a specific belief of Christianity, just the stupidity of some humans (yes even some Christians are stupid, perhaps you met some).

[coffeecrazy1]

When it comes to faith...here's the juice: Faith is believing in something only after you can admit that it may not exist.

Maybe there is no God. Maybe after we all die, and the world falls into the sun, it will be blackness and nothingness. Faith is a choice. I choose not to believe what I just wrote is true.

It just seems like you are searching for an answer, David, when, frankly, one may never exist that can satisfy your mind. We have been talking about the gap of doubt that exists in all religions. That gap must be bridged by faith, because we, as humans, cannot fully grasp the concept of the infinitely sublime. This answer may not be the one you want to hear, but at the end of the day, you have to make your choice about what you believe.

Referring to your question of why no one switches from the religion of their birth...it's the same reason why many people still hang out with friends they've known from high school. People don't like change, generally. Despite the fact that what separates us from the animals is our ability to adapt, people truly don't like to have to break out of their comfort zones. Religions are, if nothing else, completely social functions. Many times, people stay in their religions even during radical shifts in the way they believe. It's just that many of them don't want to leave their friends and what they know best behind.

[VBM]

Faith: belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof.

David, I wonder if your problem is really so much with religon per se or with "faith" as a concept. If it's the latter, your thinking like a poker-mind, I can completely understand your context.

But I think a life with no faith in anyone or anything is a cynical and sad one...No one would've been a Red Sox fan. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[fimbulwinter]

I can't believe you've missed the glaring, fundamental flaw in this post.

fim

[tminus]

if God is God then he can't have human emotions like "expectations"

There's a 50% chance that God is and a 50% that he isnt.
If I die and find out that it's real then I have alot to lose with the later option. There's nothing to lose with the first option...even if its not real in the end.

BUT...by its very nature, God is either everything or nothing...and that's a lot to swallow.

[Josh W]

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Do you believe the evidence for your specific type of Christianity is so strong that thinking people (or better yet super smart logical robots with no vested interest) should believe the probability that it is basically true is over 50%?

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I cannot speak to Felson's "specific type of Christianity". But in general, only religions answer all of the questions of the universe...science doesn't come close. So, a super smart robot, interested in only getting answers, would definitely be 'religious'.

Josh

[Josh W]

You are making a huge logical error. You think that all beliefs will be derived from either:

a.) Facts and are provable
b.) Faith, and is unprovable.

However, God can give us "reasons to believe" that are not proof.

For example, if I walk up to you at the Bellagio, say "hi", then you see me sit in a 80-160 game. I come up to you 3 hours later, and say I won $5000, showing you $9000 cash (I bought in for $4000), I certainly didn't PROVE that I won $5k.

And, if you decide to believe that I did win $5k, your belief isn't founded on naked blind faith. You certainly have a reason to believe what I say, even though you don't have proof.

People have some (although in many people its very small) inherent logic. As such, the religion that they are exposed to early on in life will be the one that gives them the 'reasons to believe' psuedo-evidence.

Also, how many religions are totally contradictory with each other? I'm asking because I don't know. As such, faith in one religion doesn't mean you completely disagree with others.

Josh