Best Heavyweight Fighter

[Blarg]

I remember in one of the Holyfield fights, he jabbed out and it was damn fast, but Holyfield slipped it very easily and seemed thoroughly unimpressed with it, and Mike looked absolutely shocked it hadn't landed. It was like he KNEW that jab was going to land. But it didn't. Tyson was really doing the best he could do. But at that caliber of fighting, it wasn't enough. Even a really good jab wasn't enough. It had to be an excellent, outstanding jab. And it wasn't.

I think I saw a look of dawning desperation, panic, and refusal to believe this could be happening to him in Mike's face right then. He just couldn't handle it, and looked like a fish out of water in an arena he was used to controlling. When his best was shrugged off so casually, I think Mike's world fell in on him big-time. He hadn't just been punched out, but suddenly he was in a different world, and it wasn't easy for him anymore. And he didn't know what to do, and couldn't handle it.

That was my impression at the time. A lot seemed to happen to Mike in that moment.

[bernie]

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I remember in one of the Holyfield fights, he jabbed out and it was damn fast, but Holyfield slipped it very easily and seemed thoroughly unimpressed with it, and Mike looked absolutely shocked it hadn't landed. It was like he KNEW that jab was going to land. But it didn't. Tyson was really doing the best he could do. But at that caliber of fighting, it wasn't enough. Even a really good jab wasn't enough. It had to be an excellent, outstanding jab. And it wasn't.

I think I saw a look of dawning desperation, panic, and refusal to believe this could be happening to him in Mike's face right then. He just couldn't handle it, and looked like a fish out of water in an arena he was used to controlling. When his best was shrugged off so casually, I think Mike's world fell in on him big-time. He hadn't just been punched out, but suddenly he was in a different world, and it wasn't easy for him anymore. And he didn't know what to do, and couldn't handle it.

That was my impression at the time. A lot seemed to happen to Mike in that moment.

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You need reach to have an effective jab. Larry Holmes made a career out of his jab. A jab he learned in sparring with Ali. Tyson, like Marciano, doesn't have the reach required. Both had to either take a shot (marciano) or be quick at dodging (tyson) to get in and do damage.

Tyson throwing a jab was a joke to watch. He very well could've realized he forgot how to fight the way that used to be the most effective.

b

[pergesu]

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one thing that people overlook with tyson is his mental drive. i spent two years boxing in high school, at an all black gym where i was picked on and made fun of (the gym was in detroit and i was one of two white kids to go there), but when i would get in the ring to spar a whole different side of me came out. i was pissed at these people and wanted nothing more than to kill them. i was in the zone and felt untouchable. if i felt anything like tyson felt when he got in the ring during his prime then i can easily see him holding his own vs. any boxer who you named.

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Cause Marciano and Ali didn't really care if they won or lost each fight. They just knew that if they fought enough fights to reach the long run, they'd be overall winners.

[Senor Cardgage]

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You don't have to post it. This stuff is beyond repetitive and clutters the forum.

There have been lots of boxing threads in which the best ever have been discussed.

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Pardon me, Mr. Moderator.

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Heh.

[Clarkmeister]

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I understand what you mean. People said the same thing about De la Hoya, who also started changing his style and his trainers to become more well-rounded and started having more trouble because of it -- which led him to try even more changes, etc.

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Del la hoyas problem was he kept moving up in weight class. He could've dominated indefinitely had he not moved up so far.

Same could be said for Roy Jones Jr. He could rule the middle-light heavy for a long while. He had some other issues though. Like not going full out on every fight. Which is a recipe for a fighter to get hurt.

b

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I didn't know which post of yours to respond to so I picked this one, which to me shows the flaw in your thinking.

You seem to glamorize these guys and think that because they are brilliant for a short time that they are unbeatable. De La Hoya to his credit takes on all comers, but when was the last time he won a real fight? He moved up? Sure, but it's not like there aren't some awesome fighters in lower weight classes. The great ones move up, and win. De La Hoya isn't great, though he was very good in a great era.

Roy Jones might've used the "took them lightly" excuse once, but twice means he got beat by a better fighter. He *could've* been an all-time great but since he ducked everyone in his prime, we'll never know. Old Man Hopkins would crush him right now.

And as for Mike, you seem to think that you can arbitrarily take a narrow period of time, in this case Mike under Cus, and say "that's his entire career" and how he should be judged. But it wasn't, and he certainly never fought ANYONE meaningful. Heck, take every fight from Douglas on, including the butt-kicking by Douglas, the two life-and-death performances against Razor Ruddock, two more butt-kickings by Holyfield, and you see the bigger problem for him. Not that he was trying to jab. That he finally fought people who weren't terrified of him. I'm not going to argue it further, but his fights against Ruddock and Buster merely showed what was later confirmed against Holyfield. Overrated bully.

Here's who Tyson fought while Cus was alive

1985
Mar. 6 -- Hector Mercedes, Albany, N.Y., TKO 1
Apr. 10 -- Trent Singleton, Albany, N.Y., TKO 1
May 23 -- Don Halpern, Albany, N.Y., KO 4
June 20 -- Rick Spain, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
July 11 -- John Alderson, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 2
July 19 -- Larry Sims, Poughkeepsie, N.Y., KO 3
Aug. 15 -- Lorenzo Canady, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 1
Sept. 5 -- Michael Johnson, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Oct. 9 -- Donnie Long, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Oct. 25 -- Robert Colay, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Nov. 1 -- Sterling Benjamin, Latham, N.Y., TKO 1

That's it.

[hoyaboy1]

Who exactly did Jones duck in his prime? He didn't always go out of his way to get fights with solid but nothing special fighters, but it wasn't like he was avoiding studs. He did beat Toney and Hopkins.

He is still an all-time great (top 50 all time pound for pound), even though he got old overnight.

[Toro]

Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

[Clarkmeister]

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Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

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It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

[IndieMatty]

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Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

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It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

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I hate when people bitch about best of or especially repetitive threads. There's a ton of new people on here, and people who don't spend all day on here; if a thread is valuable to the forum community, people will post in it and reply, when it is no longer useful it will drop to the bottom.

Bitching about it makes no sense.

[Clarkmeister]

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Surprised this thread got bumped. The new Moderator when he was only the wannabe moderator didn't approve of it.

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It got bumped because it was relevant and should have stopped new threads.

Any old discussions should be bumped before new threads get started. It's way more efficient and less redundant. That's why the search function is so nice.

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I hate when people bitch about best of or especially repetitive threads. There's a ton of new people on here, and people who don't spend all day on here; if a thread is valuable to the forum community, people will post in it and reply, when it is no longer useful it will drop to the bottom.

Bitching about it makes no sense.

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I'm not bitching about it. I bumped it and saved lots of repetition. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]