for everyone who said 3bet the turn last time i bluffed...

[MAxx]

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I don't have any comments about the actual play...only a general comment based on what others have said:

Am I the only one who could conceivably check-through the flop in hero's spot with a big club? I don't get why everyone says there's no way BZ can hold a club. Or am I actually that wimpy/passive now that I'm the only person on the planet who is willing to let a turn be saw for free when all I have is a club draw in a pot where I'm either behind and have 9-14 outs, or ahead and my opponents have very few outs (ie if they have lower aces they have 2-3 outs when I hold the Ac)?

Sure the pot is 12SBs but why must it be bet if you only hold the Ac? Are opponents ever folding right there after they put in 4-gazzilion bets PF? Are you prepared to fire a second barrel on the turn when they very likely call? Are you checking the turn and giving up if no improvement on the turn? I see the answers to these Qs are often hazy enough, meaning checking can't be that bad.

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A check-through on this flop with a big-club is good poker imo.

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In all seriousness please explain why with a A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and on the button 3way. I'll serve you up some fuzzy logic and you can rip it up.

Fuzzy Assumptions: you are 35% to hit a flush by the river. you are three way and your equity is good.

You bet the flop and get a call or two. You take a free turn non club as a plan. Unfortuneately if you get donked, no freebie.

You get cr'd you call.

Thinking through these options, I am starting to see why checking the flop here could be superior.

I think I just need someone to spell it out for me so that I can see exactly why a flop check is a better play in this sceniario.

I can think that if you bet and are just called, and then you hit a flush you may not get as much action. I can also see that you have no real fold equity. If you could just expand your thoughts, I think I could really benefit here.

Thanks in advance.

[Schneids]

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In all seriousness please explain why with a A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and on the button 3way. I'll serve you up some fuzzy logic and you can rip it up.

Fuzzy Assumptions: you are 35% to hit a flush by the river. you are three way and your equity is good.

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This is the only positive and so unless you know the first guy has red 88 and will fold to your flop bet and the next guy has AJ with jack of clubs (and you AQ with Ac), it's basically going to be true you're putting in a bet where if you get called in both spots, you just made a 0EV bet, plus you run the risk of getting checkraised, and it's just that there's almost zero chance anybody folds to your flop bet and given games' aggression levels it's waaay more likely you're going to end up putting in more than 1 bet on the flop or getting called and donked into on the turn, then it is you'll only get called and they both check it to you on the turn.

Plus when you check behind on the flop and a club comes on the turn, you will often gain just as many bets because someone with a worse club will often bet it out on the turn because you checked, and then call you down when you raise. (where as if you bet the flop they may just check and call the turn club too)

Betting the flop isn't a "bad" play and I think I would bet it if I felt like there was a decent chance I could take a free turn card, but I find in most 30/60+ games you're best served taking the free look at the turn because people are never folding and lots of people are aggressive enough that you aren't really losing out on any equity you may have had on the flop (sure I can devise situations where hero has over 40% equity but it's just hero can never have any more than that, and most of the time has barely above 35%, and the hands hero is beating/behind to are all ones where the opponents have very little outs vs him (either PP or a smaller ace) so it isn't like knocking out other hands is important...where as say an opponent had JT on this board then there is a little more reason to bet since knocking a 4 outer out of the pot is slightly more important due to the large size of the pot.

[Schneids]

The cliff note response is it's good to bet when you have 35% equity + opponents who you're beating/being beaten by have lots of live outs AND they'd maybe fold if you bet (like take JT. You'd want it to fold on this board because if they actually saw your hand they'd call). It's not such a good thing when you have 35% equity but they don't have lots of live outs, if they weren't going to fold to your bet anyway.

If we think the flop bet is going to get a fold often, then betting is more reasonable. However, in 30/60+, people don't fold on this flop and people do c/r, so, thanks to the amped aggression it becomes paramount to take the free card.

[Wynton]

Does it make any difference that MP raised after co had posted, which presumably means MP should get less credit (not to mention the cap by bb)?

[MAxx]

Excellent response... appreciate it.