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#51
08-01-2005, 10:22 PM
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Re: What I did
I mix it up too. Against a PFR who chronically bets the flop, can't argue with trying to get some dead money into the pot with a check-raise all in. In fact if there were $600 in the pot preflop you'd have to give me some exciting reasons not to check-raise all in. True AQ is more likely to call if you checkraise than if you push the flop. But the numbers shouldn't add up for pushing unless he plays really bad or only raises preflop with big pairs and big aces. I'm playing for big dead money or a coin flip with slightly the worst of it. Checkraise all in makes more money against even a moderate flop hammerer with a $600 pot unless you know something special via a tell or chronic play habits of the PFR.
With a $300 pot it gets slightly more interesting, but Ray was just offering alternative lines, not arguing for them. If the third player acted after PFR and CALLED you have a weak argument for check-calling. #3 would be far more likely to hold a flush draw. Nevertheless even if you know he has a flush draw there are an average of about 6.5 flush cards remaining out of 43. Argue for a decile more if you want. Doesn't matter. Point is you are over 6:1 to hit on the turn even if his cards are face up, and if PFR has a hand he's likely to bet both of you out on the turn. Plus you ain't semibluffing into both of those players online, and if PFR checks and #3 semibluffs you must fold. PLUS even if #3 called behind PFR you do not know he has a flush draw. PLUS in the example, #3 is OOP relative to the PFR and you have no idea whatsoever what he has, except that it is quite unlikely he has another flush draw and still unlikely he is going to call. If you check and it is checked through it is not a disaster. On the turn just check again and call a bet if you miss. Same as you might with a weak ace trap against a flop-nonaggressive PFR. What about betting? Well that seems to get you into a world of greater hurt, though not much. If you take it good. If you get called unless you hit the flush > the 8 > a third A you do not like your situation and are in that sickly should-I-semibluff-probably-not situation. [Quiz: What do you do if you hit a third ace? You'll need to profess at least one strong assumption to get me to change my line.] If you get raised, there is so much money in the pot you must push unless you know you're against the set. Even then it is not far off such that you cannot know enough to fold unless your opponent is transparent. So, your bettability rests a lot on your fold equity. But in most of the cases where they would fold, you are already ahead. All of that means crap compared to not building a $900 pot with $2,500 behind with a hand that cannot call a big turn bet unless it hits. In a nutshell, checkraise all in is my default line. The general case: Theorem: Big draws have far more value on the flop than the turn. Corollary #1: You should hammer your 12-out draws unless the pot is very small relative to the stacks OR you strongly suspect you are against a set or two pair where your kicker is lower than the second card on the flop OR the pot has >= 3 expected flop callers other than you. 3 opponents calling is a special case that deserves attention but isn't going to get it from me tonight. Corollary #2: Never let them build a flop pot that is x of your stack when you have a big draw, where x most definitely includes 900/2500. Defining bounds for x requires assumptions about your opponents. The above does not encompass or enumerate the degenerative cases, such as unusually passive turn opponents. Let me know if you want a 2+2 magazine article on this. Ni han. Matt 
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#52
08-01-2005, 10:31 PM
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Re: What I did
[ QUOTE ]
started writing out what i'd do depending on the turn card but there are so many variables. if a low flush card came i might check it and hope, if a high one came that could have given him a stronger draw or hit him lead out, leading out in general seems a much better play if you hit an 8 or a flush. [/ QUOTE ] I think you should lead out on a flush card. It's too easy for him to put in one bet then shut down if you check-call or check-raise a flush card, and he could easily check behind with a wide range of hands. bet and make him draw dead with a one pair hand (or w/ a high diamond) or draw live if he does happen to have a set. or draw dead and push on a one pair hand, or something. if I hit an 8 I'd checkraise. If I blanked I think you should check and fold, raise, or call depending on the specific blank, villain's bet, and his play. thats where things get more interesting. [ QUOTE ] f you miss, there's a good chance you get a free card when behind, if you get the right feel you can c/r all in bluff although that shold be rare, or check/call if ou are getting the right odds and feel you have implied odds, or maybe fold. [/ QUOTE ] yep
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#54
08-02-2005, 01:20 AM
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Re: What I did
Used to take this line all the time with strong pair + or straight + FDs. Then realized that if I lead for the pot and they raised and I 3 bet I was tying up more dead money for when they folded (and may actually have more bluffing equity as it broadcasts a real hand as opposed to a check raise all in which kinda says "I don't care if you call or fold but i've worked out that you folding is slightly better so please do". And I play a set the same way with the 3 bet generally, which disguises holdings better. Shrug. What else are you check raising all in on this flop for instance?
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#56
08-02-2005, 04:46 AM
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Re: What I did
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What else are you check raising all in on this flop for instance? [/ QUOTE ] Sets and naked flush draws are also possibilities. [/ QUOTE ] In my experience guising sets and draws under this veil makes much less in the long run than packaging them under the lead/3bet option. Moreover it eliminates play on later streets where you (as a presumably better player) have a larger overlay. What are your thoughts on this? fim
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#57
08-02-2005, 04:55 AM
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Re: What I did
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What else are you check raising all in on this flop for instance? [/ QUOTE ] Sets and naked flush draws are also possibilities. [/ QUOTE ] In my experience guising sets and draws under this veil makes much less in the long run than packaging them under the lead/3bet option. Moreover it eliminates play on later streets where you (as a presumably better player) have a larger overlay. What are your thoughts on this? fim [/ QUOTE ] I play similar looking hands many different ways.
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