Doyle's a scumbag?

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt poker is too much different than other businesses; certainly some people get away with cheating forever without being found out.

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Without a doubt.
The idea that it doesn't happen just because someone might be watching them is incorrect.

Not everyone that works in casino-security is that poker-sharp.
Not all cheaters would do it so obviously as to flash 3rd-base-coach type signals across the table to their partner.


There are ways to do it that I can think of off the top of my head that would be pretty difficult to detect...and I'm really not that smart nor would be that good at such things.

(if the following is somehow inappropriate then moderator may feel free to delete it...or I'll delete it myself if I told in time)

Even something like:
"chip on top of cards in the dead-middle means no hand"
"chip on top of cards a little off-center means pocket-pair"
"chip on top of cards more to the side means I have an ace"
could be somewhat powerful between colluders.

Perhaps even "If I bet or raise on a rainbow flop then I have something strong and want you to re-raise" could be enough.


If the colluders weren't too stupidly out-of-hand about it then the cheating could go on for a long time without ever being detected by you, me or expert players I suspect.



FWIW - When I played in my first WSOP event (the $3k NLHE on July 1) I was dealt a card with a finger-nail marking on the back. I didn't think it was unintentional and before I even peeked at my cards i thought "I bet this card is an ace".
Indeed, it was an ace.
There were 3 'name' players at my table (Huck Seed, Eric Brenes and Tom McEvoy) and 6 relative unknowns.
I was also told that they re-used cards from previous days so they were all likely to have markings on them after a few weeks of use.

[MMMMMM]

Russ G. doesn't seem to be aware of the difference between fact and speculation, and presents both in the same manner--that is, as if it ALL were fact. That's not a useful or credible approach, and is potentially very harmful both to certain individuals and in general.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
Russ G. doesn't seem to be aware of the difference between fact and speculation, and presents both in the same manner--that is, as if it ALL were fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is also a problem because he's not just a lunatic. Some of what he says has been confirmed by some of the big names in poker. For example, Sklansky has had some things to say about cheating in the past. Negreanu has been involved in the discussions. And so on.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
Russ G. doesn't seem to be aware of the difference between fact and speculation, and presents both in the same manner--that is, as if it ALL were fact.



[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone got a link?

[andyfox]

In my experience, it's rare that you'll play a session without a marked card showing up somewhere if you're in a 20-40 or higher game in a major casino. I've heard tales of signaling, such as you describe, and I know there are some people in my game who play on the same bankroll, but I've never seen such collusion. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
...and I know there are some people in my game who play on the same bankroll,...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something that players should try and know about of people in their regular game(s), especially higher-limit games. And with the popularity and rise of NL in recent years, this may be more common than it used to be. Some years ago, I played in pot-limit games were I knew that one and sometimes two people at the table were being banked by a big money player. You then watched yourself when in hands involving those specific players. I suspect that at times there was collusion and cheating. I, however, have no proof.

Marked cards are quite common. Watch for them.

It's always best to be cautious, especially if something doesn't 'feel 'right'.

-Zeno

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
I read the WPT forum occasionally, and it makes me laugh how so many people parrot what they saw on a poker TV show or read in an interview. They don't question it at all... they buy it hook, line, and sinker. That goes for many things in our society, but I happen to know more about poker players than I do about, say, White House officials, so it's more amusing to me to see the delusion.

Living in ignorance is fine as long as you don't sit at the table with these people. But when you enter their territory... the big games... you'd better have your wits about you.

[/ QUOTE ]


That was worth reading again.


So is this:


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Just because you see someone on TV, and they have the reputation of being an excellent poker player and a standup person doesn't mean that either is true. They might be a bad poker player and a cheater. In fact, in my opinion, the large majority of "TV poker personalities" have been presented with a serious layer of spin. They're not all cheaters by any means, but most of them are not the "poker geniuses" the shows would have you believe they are. Some are hustlers, grifters, cheaters, beggers, and the like. Most of the other ones are just some boob who plays poker ok and is running good.


[/ QUOTE ]


Excellent post in my opinion. Also, Mr. Miller, I will take this opportunity to say best wishes and good luck to you and the new attachment.

-Zeno

[J.A.Sucker]

You can't see real marked cards these days. All you can do, especially when playing short, is to quit when things don't feel right. Usually this has to do with the flow of the action not being what you'd think. There's a lot to this, and I'm not going to get into it, but people can reason some of it out.

[dibbs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I recall Clark once said there is (implicit) collusion in the Big Game to such a degree that no non-regulars can win.



[/ QUOTE ]
Barry plays in the big game now, and if he plays there then its obviously safe as he has no ties whatsoever to vegas, he doesnt live in vegas and only goes there occasionally to play. He is not a regular and if there was any proof to what you guys said, he would get cleaned out, but if you read his book you will see that he does rather well in it. Think about that before screaming collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he's down with em now? They told him how they do it man.

[Zeno]

Thanks Mr. Sucker. I was referring to the amateur way some try to "dent" etc. cards.

Your point is well taken.

-Zeno