Raising Preflop

i thought i did prove it somewhat quantitatively... if you want me to spend my time doing monkey math and post five hands chasing down your top pair with the probability they do so you have the wrong fellow..

also, if you can't see why having improved odds of chasing a hand that is less likely to get cracked than top pair, like a nut straight or flush draw, is better, than i will need to fill two pages of poker logic

Well, I guess I do have the wrong fellow then. I regret to inform you that I cannot simply take you at your word that you are correct; I do require reasoned arguments to change my mind. Better luck on the next person!

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever. In fact, when I play poker, I am not hoping anything; this is aside from the point.

When I raise AK UTG I want 9 callers. When I raise J10s on the button I want 2 callers.

I do not want to thin the field. I raise for value. Thinning the field is a myth.

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I have no idea what the point of your post is.

"Thinning the field is a myth" - Edited: in the games I play. Great...what am I supposed to do with this? It's not in the games I play.

It seems all that some are saying here is that as there are more people in the hand, hands like top pair win less frequently, so some hands lose value. So, if you're raising KJo in the games you play getting nine to the flop, it's not a good idea. I'm assuming you already know this, though.

What is supposed to be gleaned from your original post?

Raising to 'thin the field' is a myth in every game. What is not a myth is that 'occasionally' (very occasionally) you actually want your opponents to fold.

Does that answer your question?

ok... here's two examples...
you have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], k [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

you are unable to isolate, and the flop comes
7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

you are up against:
7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].... 5 outs to beat you
9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] .... roughly 6 1/2 outs given runner flush potential... and removing the 6 and j of diamonds
K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]... 9 outs to the flush, and two more to the two pair (given the 10 of clubs is out)

4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 outs to beat you...

i'm not saying that isolating is possible in B+M's as it is often not... i'm just saying that it would be ideal... this is giving your opponents 22/47 and 22/46 chances of beating you twice... you're not likely to hold up

oops... assume you have k [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Of course the more opponents you play against the less likely you are to win. This is obvious. You have not yet mentioned my EXPECTATION (which is the failure of most arguments). Clearly, I can do with winning less often if I am winning 5x as much.

[private joker]

When I raise ATs, I am hoping AJo folds. When I raise KJs, I am hoping KQo folds. When I raise TT and JJ, I am hoping Kx, Qx, and Ax in the blinds fold.

Often when I raise PF, I want people to fold.

When a maniac LAG open-raises to my right, and I reraise with KTo, it's not because I think my hand is better than those to act behind me -- it's because I want those who act behind me to fold. I want it heads up because I think KTo is only a favorite against the maniac's range of hands, not the range of hands that will call if I just cold-call. A lot of hands that have me crushed will fold for 3 bets. I like that.

Yes you want AJ to fold but it won't. KQ also will not fold to a raise (barring the occasional rock, of course every rule has an exception). Therefor, you don't actually WANT folds (since these hands won't fold) you want calls.

Clearly if you can get better hands to fold than this is positive. It is not going to happen.

Your point about 1010 vs kx is salient but I am not sure if it is correct. This should be examined.

(edited in)

This also is not 'thinning the field', this is folding better hands. Thinning the field assumes that the fewer hands you play against the better, which is blatantly false.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising to 'thin the field' is a myth in every game. What is not a myth is that 'occasionally' (very occasionally) you actually want your opponents to fold.

Does that answer your question?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the difference, in your opinion, between thinning the field and wanting an opponent(s) to fold.