Why do Jews Reject Jesus - Part 2 - Page 6

m1illion · #1 07-26-2005, 06:08 AM

Do you believe Elijah raised someone from the dead?

xniNja · #2 07-26-2005, 08:02 AM

I realize this post is too long, but I have a question for the OP that was already touched upon but seemingly ignored... I buy your argument 100% but feel the same way about the Hebrew Bible. Why buy the Hebrew Bible and not the Rig Vedas written thousands of years earlier, or why dare blaspheme mighty Zeus and the Gods of Olympus, and how could you possibly think Ra the Sun God could have changed his mind on how he wanted to be worshipped?

PLOlover · #3 07-26-2005, 10:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why buy the Hebrew Bible and not the Rig Vedas written thousands of years earlier, or why dare blaspheme mighty Zeus and the Gods of Olympus, and how could you possibly think Ra the Sun God could have changed his mind on how he wanted to be worshipped?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because in his opinion it has the highest EV. Also note that the god of the old testament clearly recognizes that there are other gods.

Also , I mean, have you read greek mythology? Those guys are some capricious and cruel gods. No rain in due season from them.

xniNja · #4 07-26-2005, 10:40 AM

I have studied most religions/mythologies (not all) ... yes the Greek gods seem capricious and cruel, but also benevolent and powerful...similar to the God described in the Bible, the Gods described in the Vedas, and similar to my experiences in life. I'll admit I'm not thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament.. but if it admits there are other Gods- then why should it be valued above them or become a new authority?

I understand he may think Judaism is +EV, I was just trying to argue that his perception is based on nothing superior to any credibility of older religions or future religions to come.

Zygote · #5 07-26-2005, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have studied most religions/mythologies (not all) ... yes the Greek gods seem capricious and cruel, but also benevolent and powerful...similar to the God described in the Bible, the Gods described in the Vedas, and similar to my experiences in life. I'll admit I'm not thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament.. but if it admits there are other Gods- then why should it be valued above them or become a new authority?

I understand he may think Judaism is +EV, I was just trying to argue that his perception is based on nothing superior to any credibility of older religions or future religions to come.

[/ QUOTE ]

Judaism doesn't believe there are other gods. In fact, the religion prides itself on being monotheistic. The old tesament does, however, recognize that people will worship false idols.

BossJJ probably doesn't accept these other gods for the following reasons:

He believes that his ancestors made this choice for him. He believes that the god of hte old testament revealed himself to several million jewish people. These people didn't need to accept other gods because they had direct conformation that this was the one and only true god.

PLOlover · #6 07-26-2005, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand he may think Judaism is +EV, I was just trying to argue that his perception is based on nothing superior to any credibility of older religions or future religions to come.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. The god of the old testament made a contract with people on Sinai and there are articulable benefits associated with worshipping him.

You know, if you believe in that sort of thing.

bossJJ · #7 07-26-2005, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I realize this post is too long, but I have a question for the OP that was already touched upon but seemingly ignored... I buy your argument 100% but feel the same way about the Hebrew Bible. Why buy the Hebrew Bible and not the Rig Vedas written thousands of years earlier, or why dare blaspheme mighty Zeus and the Gods of Olympus, and how could you possibly think Ra the Sun God could have changed his mind on how he wanted to be worshipped?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already addressed this in several posts in this thread. I'm not ignoring the issue at all.

m1illion · #8 07-27-2005, 05:30 AM

1. Do you believe that Elijah raised the dead?

2. Is "eye for an eye " the correct mode or is "turn the other cheek" the way to go?

3. Which god did Jesus try to turn the Jews to, if not the God of Abraham?

4. Religion is the bane of humankind.

bossJJ · #9 07-27-2005, 05:18 PM

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1. Do you believe that Elijah raised the dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was God who brought the boy back to life. Elijah was just a tool in His hands. This is recorded in Chapter 17 of I Kings.

Had I said that I don't believe it's true, that would be okay too, according to Judaism, because God tells us what to do, not what to believe. Of course observant Jews believe in the bible, but we don't interpret everything literally, and there are different interpretations of some verses. Particularly concerning the book of Genesis, it is not uncommon for (religious) Jews to believe that a lot of it didn't literally happen. For example, it's okay to believe in evolution (and I do).

bossJJ · #10 07-27-2005, 05:25 PM

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2. Is "eye for an eye " the correct mode or is "turn the other cheek" the way to go?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have already explained why I believe that the gt is false.

"Turn the other cheek" implies that people should go unpunished for harming others, and that is wrong.

By bringing up these verses, you imply that the God of the gt is kinder that the God of the Hebrew bible. This is not true. Besides having more reasonable laws, in the Hebrew bible God does not require us to be perfect, He is "near to all those who call upon Him" (both Jews and gentiles), and there is no eternal damnation. The gt contradicts all this and claims that God now requires perfection (or belief in Jesus) and everyone else (the vast majority of all people who have ever lived) gets tortured in hell for eternity. God's love is now restricted to the few who can believe the gt's claims about Jesus. Jews believe in a much more loving and universal God.

I mentioned in the other thread that we believe that "an eye for an eye" refers to monetary (and other) compensation for damages. This is clear when the verses (Exodus 21:23-25) are read in context. Read all of Exodus 21:22-36. Verses 22 and 30-35 specifically mention paying fines. Verses 26 and 27 specifically discuss the case of a slave-owner who strikes and knocks the eye or tooth of a slave. To compensate the slave for the loss of his eye or even just a tooth, the slave-owner had to set him free. But the slave-owner did not get his own eye or tooth knocked out.

Jews never went around knocking others’ eyes or teeth out. Nor did they go around stoning people they believe had committed a capital offense. As I mentioned in the other thread, a person was put to death only after being tried and convicted in court. The accused had many rights, and it was difficult to get a conviction. Someone was put to death less than once every seventy years. Somebody who caught somebody else committing a crime didn’t just stone him on the spot, and there is no evidence that anyone ever did so. GT verses that imply otherwise just demonstrate the authors’ unfamiliarity with Jewish law and society. It’s as ridiculous as claiming that it happens in modern day Sweden or Japan.

Regarding slavery in the bible - It was actually much more like being an indentured servant. It is the same Hebrew word for "slave" and "servant." Slaves had to be treated humanely and provided for. A slave who escaped could not be returned to his owner. Rather, he was allowed to remain free (Deut 23:15-16). Hebrew slaves had to be freed at the beginning of the seventh year.

Non-Hebrew slaves could become slaves in only two ways: Either they were captured in war (in which case it was instead of being killed in battle), or they voluntarily sold themselves as a slave (in which case they were paid for doing so).