I've been Thinking

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Those verses, DVaut1, do not specifically instruct people to go out to kill or make war.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the ever moving target. Remember what you said:

[ QUOTE ]
Abortion clinic fanatical murderers don't point to specific Biblical verses to justify their killings, to my knowledge

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you're wrong, and they most certainly do.

[ QUOTE ]
Paul Hill is deluded, or cannot read critically enough, if he claims these verses represent definitive Biblical basis for his actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. Explain to me how this is different from mainstream Muslims claiming the same thing about extremists in their ranks?

[ QUOTE ]
Similar comment: that verse does not instruct followers to go out and kill.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this is difficult for you, but please remember what you said. Just look up. It's not hard:

[ QUOTE ]
Abortion clinic fanatical murderers don't point to specific Biblical verses to justify their killings, to my knowledge

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please stay consistent for me? You seem to have a problem with defending what you say, without resorting to changing around your wording. Again, people like Paul Hill cite specific Bible verses all the time to justify their killings. I know you'd like to wave a magic wand and pretend you didn't say it, but you did, and you're wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the verses from the Koran, however, DO specifically instruct followers to go out and kill--for instance the verses instructing Muslims to slay idolaters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely, some of the more deluded members of the Muslim community feel this way. But they're just deluded.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, they don't point to specific verses from Christianity directly instructing them to go out and kill whosoever takes innocent life.

[/ QUOTE ]

" When I went from mentally debating whether to act, in general, to planning a particular act, I felt some relief. Romans 14:23b says"... and whatever is not from faith is sin." If I had not acted when I did, it would have been a direct and unconscionable sin of disobedience. One of the first things I told my wife, after the shooting was, "I didn't have any choice!" That cry came from the depths of my soul. I was certain, and still am, that God called me to obey His revealed will at that particular time.

My plan was to carry my shotgun from my parked truck to the front of the abortion clinic in a rolled-up poster board protest sign. I would leave the concealed shotgun lying on the ground until the abortionist drove past me into the clinic parking lot."

Is the book of Romans not part of the New Testament now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Paul Hill is describing his reasoning and motivation for his acts. The quote you cited from the Book of Romans is obviously NOT telling him to go out and kill. It is merely talking about faith and sin.

[ QUOTE ]
" In a statement before his execution, Rev. Hill said that he felt no remorse for his actions, and that he expected "a great reward in Heaven. "

Where have I heard something similar to this before? Replace 'reward' with 'virgins' and Myrtle's point should start to become clearer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Myrtle's point was quite clear. However is not the personal mindsets of various fanatics which were being discussed, but rather which religious texts literally support the radical and violently aggressive beliefs of some of their followers.

I have cited some Koranic verses which plainly do so support and instruct. Paul Hill's statements and belief do not cite Biblical verses which would unequivocally support his actions or position. Contrast this with the Koranic verses which I cited which are very clear in their DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS to Muslims to attack or kill nonbelievers and idolaters.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
However is not the personal mindsets of various fanatics which were being discussed, but rather which religious texts literally support the radical and violently aggressive beliefs of some of their followers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, Paul Hill/the Army of God feels that the Bible literally supports their actions.

[ QUOTE ]
Paul Hill's statements and belief do not cite Biblical verses which would unequivocally support his actions or position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Says you. I'm sure he disagrees (or would, if he were still alive).

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Abortion clinic fanatical murderers don't point to specific Biblical verses to justify their killings, to my knowledge

[/ QUOTE ]



Of course you're wrong, and they most certainly do.

[/ QUOTE ]

"ACCURATELY point to" is what was implied by my context, and this should have been obvious because I was contrasting it with the verses of the Koran used by imams and radical Islamists, which literally support their positions and actions. I wasn't talking about someone seizing on an ambiguous verse to mistakenly support a position.

Paul Hill is nistakenly using the verses he cites, because those verses are clearly not unequivocal commands to go out and kill. Something that may be ambiguous or be taken in the proberbial sense is not an unequivocal command. Certain Koranic verses cited however ARE unequivocal commands--and clearly so.

All you have to do is read with clear comprehension, and you should be able to discern the substantial differences between the verses cited. Cetrtain Koranic verses are direct commands, whereas something like "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" can easily be taken as a proverb of sorts. However a verse directly commanding Muslims to arrest and slay idolaters is not ambiguous at all.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Paul Hill is nistakenly using the verses he cites, because those verses are clearly not unequivocal commands to go out and kill. Something that may be ambiguous or be taken in the proberbial sense is not an unequivocal command. Certain Koranic verses cited however ARE unequivocal commands--and clearly so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite certain most Muslims don't consider the verses in the Koran you cited as unequivocal commands (hence, why most Muslims aren't out killing).

Remember our conversation about expertise? I trust the vast majority’s judgment of what constitutes an 'unequivocal command' in the Koran over your judgment any day, and it's not even close.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However is not the personal mindsets of various fanatics which were being discussed, but rather which religious texts literally support the radical and violently aggressive beliefs of some of their followers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, Paul Hill/the Army of God feels that the Bible literally supports their actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter what they FEEL. We are discussing whether specific verses DO so support, or not. That's why we are analyzing specific verses, in order to compare them.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Paul Hill's statements and belief do not cite Biblical verses which would unequivocally support his actions or position.


[/ QUOTE ]


Says you. I'm sure he disagrees (or would, if he were still alive).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so he would disagree.

Just try looking at it like a verbal SAT question, OK? There's a right and a wrong answer, and based on that which has thus far been presented it should be pretty clear which is which. Unless you have more to add, that is.

The verses cited by Paul Hill DO NOT INSTRUCT followers to go out and kill in defense of innocents. Certain verses cited from the Koran DO INSTRUCT followers to go out and kill, attack, and make war upon idolaters and nonbelievers. At least this much I hope we can agree upon, since all that is requisite for concurrence on this point is basic reading comprehension.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
The verses cited by Paul Hill DO NOT INSTRUCT followers to go out and kill in defense of innocents. Certain verses cited from the Koran DO INSTRUCT followers to go out and kill, attack, and make war upon idolaters and nonbelievers. At least this much I hope we can agree upon, since all that is requisite for concurrence on this point is basic reading comprehension.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect you'd have a hard time finding many Muslim scholars who feel that the verses you've cited INSTRUCT followers to kill, attack, and make war upon idolaters. Maybe a few.

Just like I could find a few Christians who feel that Biblical verses INSTRUCT followers to go out and kill, attack, and make war upon their enemies.

[Exsubmariner]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't approve of any ideology whose sole purpose it to make us feel good about ourselves and justify all of our actions. I don't want to compare you to any historical figures, but I fear before long you will prospose the final solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about your personal ideaology, Max? Doesn't your personal ideaology make you feel good and justify your actions here for comparing me to Hitler? Does that mean you don't approve of your own personal ideaology? Does that mean you have no personal ideaology?

Please, this is boring me. You give me the same moral relativism arguement which you can't win, and then you call me names.

Underwhelming.

X

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter what they FEEL. We are discussing whether specific verses DO so support, or not. That's why we are analyzing specific verses, in order to compare them.


[/ QUOTE ]

If this wasn't obvious already (if you've completely missed the point here), what specific verses DO and DO NOT support is entirely a matter of interpretation, and not a matter of reading comprehension.

Some Muslims read the Koran and think "I must kill my enemies." Some Christians read the Bible and think "I must kill my enemies."

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Paul Hill is mistakenly using the verses he cites, because those verses are clearly not unequivocal commands to go out and kill. Something that may be ambiguous or be taken in the proberbial sense is not an unequivocal command. Certain Koranic verses cited however ARE unequivocal commands--and clearly so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite certain most Muslims don't consider the verses in the Koran you cited as unequivocal commands (hence, why most Muslims aren't out killing).

Remember our conversation about expertise? I trust the vast majority’s judgment of what constitutes an 'unequivocal command' in the Koran over your judgment any day, and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the reason most Muslims don't go out and do those things is because they have better things to do, and are decent people. It's not like a huge portion of the Muslim population (of those who have actually read the Koran) think the Koran doesn't contain those instructions.

Many imams routinely preach things of this nature in mosques, too. See www.MEMRI.org for many actual transcripts of mosque sermons, including sermons conducted at the Grand Mosque in Mecca.

Anyway, how could one read the most obvious verses cited in this thread, without considering them unequivocal commands? The Koran is considered by Muslims to be the direct word of Allah, containing direct instruction to all humans for all of time. It is not given in the historical sense (as is much of the Old Testament), but rather in the direct sense of God speaking to humans, through the transcription by Muhammad his Messenger, who wrote down God's words as conveyed to him by the Archangel Gabriel. The Koran is very much a set of direct commands by Allah, to humans.