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#52
03-23-2005, 03:17 AM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No, I don't agree. Not even close. [/ QUOTE ] He was easily the best position player of the 90s, the only two people even remotely close are Big Hurt and Griffey. He was, at his prime, an amazing left fielder. From 1990-1998, his lowest OBP was .406. From 90-98 he was never lower than 5th on the NL leaderboards, leading the league 4 times. From 1990-1998, he had a SLG below .550 once. He was never below sixth on the NL leaderboards, leading thrice. From 1990-1998, his lowest OPS was .914 - which lead the league in 1992. He was never below THIRD on the NL leaderboard, leading five times. From 1990-1998, his lowest OPS+ was 161, which lead the league. This measure compares park-adjusted OPS to the league average - 100 would avarage. He lead the league 4 times during this period, and was never below third. He also made the top ten in steals in the NL 7 times during this period. For his career until 1998, he had a career OPS+ of 164 in 8100 atbats. This would make him 9th all time, behind a few people that it would be hard to make a case being better than Bonds - Shoeless Joe (who had 1000 less PAs and was out of the game at 30), Dan Brouthers (who played the overwhelming majority of his time pre-1900), and the upper echelon of position players - Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Williams - most of whom played pre-integration, in a league without talented black hitters, making it easier to dominate their leagues. Please list your top ten list of position players, all time, start of the majors-1998, and I'll ridicule it for not including Barry. [/ QUOTE ] VNH. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Game, set, match. [/ QUOTE ] Do you know how had more hits than anybody else during the '90's? It was Mark Grace. Does this mean that Mark Grace should be considered one of the top singles hitters of all time? I have nothing against Bonds and he certainly was a great player prior to the whole steroids thing, but he wasn't considered remotely in the class he's in now. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Bonds is always trying to elicit sympathy by bringing his kids into it. [/ QUOTE ] Ummm, I have to disagree with you here. Bonds' primary concern during interviews is not eliciting sympathy (and never has been) perhaps until this last one (in which I also don't think he really was trying to elicit sympathy). [/ QUOTE ] I actually have heard him bring his kids into it before this one. In an interview I saw a year or two ago, he said something along the lines of "My son came up to me the other day and asked 'Daddy, why are all these people saying you do those things you don't do.'" 
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#53
03-23-2005, 04:25 AM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
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why would baseball allow anyone that used steroids or is taking them to ever play in the leagues again. they should be stripped of all records and forgotten. this makes baseball a sham the way they are trying to poo-poo it and have self regulation. [/ QUOTE ] It's because they have deliberately had their heads in the sand for a long time. Steroids weren't even banned in baseball until the late '90s (I think - correct me someone if necessary). Androstenedione, which was banned by EVERY pro sport and the Olympics was still legal in baseball in 2001 with Mcgwire. Baseball and it's leadership are huge hypocrites. Did you see Bud Selig's testimony about how he wasn't aware there was even a problem in 1998? RIGHT. . .
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#54
03-23-2005, 07:04 AM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
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Why's this? Well, in a smaller league, with a smaller talent pool, it's much easier to dominate. [/ QUOTE ] I think the exact opposite of this statement is correct.......
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#55
03-23-2005, 10:19 AM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
was it in the sand or were they looking the other way. big difference i dont know which.
but anyone that breaks records or even plays and defies the rules to use methods that are illegal should have all his feats erased. no longer can it be determined which things he did was because he was great or because of performance enhancing drugs. like him or hate him anyone that does this stuff, accomplishments mean nothing and should be treated as such.
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#56
03-23-2005, 01:40 PM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
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I feel bad for his kids. No, really I do. They have to live with this A-hole. [/ QUOTE ] Awsome.
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#57
03-23-2005, 02:58 PM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why's this? Well, in a smaller league, with a smaller talent pool, it's much easier to dominate. [/ QUOTE ] I think the exact opposite of this statement is correct....... [/ QUOTE ] If the league was smaller NOW it'd be harder - because there'd be less roster spots. However, since the 1920s the talent pool has grown exponentially with the addition of blacks, hispanics, asians, and the large population boom, not to mention advances in modern medicine allowing player to play that would not have been able to otherwise. Think of every player pitching right now that's had Tommy John surgery, and replace him with guys that didn't quite make the team. How much worse would pitching be? Think about every roster spot taken up by a non-white. How much worse would the talent be without it? Players are much better, on average, than they were years ago.
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#58
03-23-2005, 03:10 PM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
[ QUOTE ]
Do you know how had more hits than anybody else during the '90's? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, Mark Grace [ QUOTE ] It was Mark Grace. [/ QUOTE ] No kidding. [ QUOTE ] Does this mean that Mark Grace should be considered one of the top singles hitters of all time? [/ QUOTE ] I compared Barry year to year to the rest of his league from the beginning of his peak, to 1998, since by all accounts, he likely started taking steroids in 1999. I then compared his career numbers up to that point with what is widely considered to be the best players of all time, and showed that he stands up favorably, once eras are taken into account. You've taken a simple aggregate that doesn't mention that, say, Mark Grace is 94th on the all time hit list, or that he's never lead the league in hits. Furthermore, you're using a meaningless stat such as H. To compare the two is absurd.
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#59
03-23-2005, 03:20 PM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
"Erased"? That's such bullshit. It happened, and you want to pretend it didn't? Baseball is a game of extensive information and statistics. You can't pretend it didn't happen - do you want to strip the Giants of their NL Pennant and NL West titles?
Just about every single record in the game was born out of the context it was played in. Baseball's not a uniform game; with different ballparks and talent levels, and stategies used in different eras, it's easy to see trends. Why were all the triples records set in the first 40 years of the game? Are they meaningless? Furthermore, we don't have a damn clue about how different drugs affect players' ability. None. Making rash judgments based on a witch hunt mentality is idiotic and overreacting. Of course, we'll never know the full extent because everyone sticks their fingers in their ears and screams when people start talking about steroids in any manner that isn't related to burning offenders at the stake. Baseball has never used asterisks. Instead, they give people the information and let them interpret it how they want. That's the way it should be.
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#60
03-23-2005, 10:09 PM
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Re: I feel bad for Barry Bonds
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Why's this? Well, in a smaller league, with a smaller talent pool, it's much easier to dominate. [/ QUOTE ] I think the exact opposite of this statement is correct....... [/ QUOTE ] If the league was smaller NOW it'd be harder - because there'd be less roster spots. However, since the 1920s the talent pool has grown exponentially with the addition of blacks, hispanics, asians, and the large population boom, not to mention advances in modern medicine allowing player to play that would not have been able to otherwise. Think of every player pitching right now that's had Tommy John surgery, and replace him with guys that didn't quite make the team. How much worse would pitching be? Think about every roster spot taken up by a non-white. How much worse would the talent be without it? Players are much better, on average, than they were years ago. [/ QUOTE ] You don't really believe this, do you? In an expanded league, with watered down talent, it is much easier for a great player to dominate, particularly a power hitter, with the awful pitching prevalent these days.
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