GREG RAYMER= OVERATTED ON 2+2??

[mojorisin24]

And I 100% agree with AngryCola. Raymer has proven that he's a thoughtful, imaginative poker player who can perform at the highest level. The fact that he provides many informative posts and is a very pleasant man only adds to his appeal here on 2+2. Why there is such debate about people here having a bias towards Raymer is foolish; everyone here who reads his posts SHOULD have a bias, as we all respect and appreciate his contributions.

[slickpoppa]

Just pointing out the hipocrisy of a thread about a bias when the OP has a possible bias of his own. If Josh is obviously so much better than Greg and is a world class player, then why are his results, which are apparently the ultimate barometer of skill, subpar compared to other "world class" players? If he is so world class, why does he only have one WSOP bracelet (the same number as Fossilman, and for a much less prestigious event)? Why has he never played at the big game? Why has no one ever heard of him before? Why did he put his tournament life on the line with AQ v. AK?

My point is not that Josh is a bad player. My point is that if the OP applied the same analysis to Arieh's career as he did to Fossilman's, he would not reach the conclusion that Josh is a far superior player. But somehow he did reach that conclusion. Bias?

[stupidsucker]

Ya know, I only read about 1/4 of the posts here. I expect posts like this until next year when you all have a new "not worthy" player to bash like MM the year before.

Dont know how you can judge a guy by what you see of him on TV. A lot of people here followed him as much as they could play by play. You dont have to read a single one of Greg's posts to know he is good, because most of the posters I respect here say he is good. That is enough for me. I am not even going to mention the obvious name(s) debating against him.

When any of you win the wsop or any other major tourney, then you can talk $hit.

[Gamblor]

I get it now. Arieh is Jewish and Raymer is not.

Wow, you really hate Jews eh?

Maybe you're just sick of the pride every Jew gets when another one is successful. That's ok. It's called a community. I mean, after so many years of the bullshit, can you blame them for sticking together and distrusting outsiders?

Fine. We have a little growing up to do.

You're still an asshole.

Kahane Chai, eh zaxx.

[slickpoppa]

Just because I have criticized the Israeli government does not mean I hate Jews. There is a big difference, and that is one of the major problems with any dialogue about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

My previous comment about Zaxx's possible bias is not unwarranted. If he wants to criticize 2+2ers for favoring Fossilman, then he should be open to the same criticism.

[daryn]

i haven't read anything in this thread yet, but i think this has to be said.

greg's advice was golden long before he won the world series of poker. i remember maybe one and a half years ago, i was really interested in furthering my tournament game, and i PMed greg to ask him if he gave lessons. again, this was BEFORE all the wsop crap.

greg raymer overrated? no way.

[TransientR]

Desdia, whatever the merits of some of your arguments, you come off as mean spirited. Lederer or Ivey or fill-in-the-blanks, may be a better player than Gregg over-the-table, that doesn't mean that he doesn't give solid well-written advice, and doesn't deserve a book deal for his essays.

Many "World Class" performers in all fields of human endeavor can't write a lick, or explain why they do so well with any cogency. Raymer writes well, and won the biggest tourney in Poker, so..he is certainly worth reading IMO.

Frank

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Desdia, whatever the merits of some of your arguments, you come off as mean spirited. Lederer or Ivey or fill-in-the-blanks, may be a better player than Gregg over-the-table, that doesn't mean that he doesn't give solid well-written advice, and doesn't deserve a book deal for his essays.

Many "World Class" performers in all fields of human endeavor can't write a lick, or explain why they do so well with any cogency. Raymer writes well, and won the biggest tourney in Poker, so..he is certainly worth reading IMO.

Frank

[/ QUOTE ]

this has nothing to do with poker advice. this has nothing to do with how well a guy can discuss specific hands or how a guy can near perfectly analyze a tourney situation. this is not a discussion on how "WELL" he writes but alot of y'all keep bringing this up time and time again as if you members of the Greg Raymer Literary Club. we're not discussing the works of Tolstoy v.s. the works of Faulkner.

my stance has always been about RESULTS. people try to lobby on behalf of his results because of his so-called "amateur status" or because he played less tournaments over the years than fulltime pros (but yet he's won the WSOP ME). that's kind of like trying to put stock behind short-term results. in the 1-table Tournaments Forum, much is made over playing alot over a long period of time and being a CONSISTENT performer in SNGs to know whether you're a long-term, winning, and PROFITABLE player. i feel the same way about tournaments. from the stats i've seen on of his tourney performances (someone posted a link a few months back), they were'nt all that spectacular. does that mean that he is'nt a good player? no. with me, it's never been a discussion of whether he is good enough. you all seem to want to keep bringing it back to that.

do i believe he's good? yes. do i believe his results reflect how much y'all hype him up to be? no.

[Synth]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't even read it. I just assumed it was ignorant and negative, like every other one of your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oooooh, so you basically responded because Zaxx was the poster and Raymer was the topic. So you didn't really read anything Zaxx had to say in this thread but posted a reply basically because you believed the post to be negative towards your hero Raymer.

Very good Phixx, you ignoramus. I suggest in the future you read what people have to say before you respond in such a stupid manner.

For that, you sir are an idiot.

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't threads like this the reason pros stop posting to these Forums? I appreciate having a World Champion post here, but these attacks make guys like him and other top players go away. So is it really necessary to slam him? For the record my two cents says he's a good player, a nice guy,and he was fearless. Does that make him world class? It would take better players than me to know. But why slam him?

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? Zaxx and Desdia72 have said that Greg Raymer's success since the WSOP has been below par (which is true). They have also said that Arieh and Williams recieve nothing but negativity on 2+2 (which is partially true). They have both stated that Gregs play based on all the hype surrounding him on 2+2 doesn't support it (which is true). Not one post that I have read so far since I posted this response has slammed Greg Raymer. The only thing I have read so far are relative facts stating that Greg play since the WSOP doesn't deserve the hype he recieves since the victory, not that he's a bad player.

I'm sure everyone appreciates a World Champion post on this forum, I sure as hell do, but I also appreciate the people that step forward and debate something they believe to be wrong or biased, and I think everyone has the right do that.

So if you see otherwise, your definition of "being slammed" is ALOT different then mine.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't even read it. I just assumed it was ignorant and negative, like every other one of your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oooooh, so you basically responded because Zaxx was the poster and Raymer was the topic. So you didn't really read anything Zaxx had to say in this thread but posted a reply basically because you believed the post to be negative towards your hero Raymer.

Very good Phixx, you ignoramus. I suggest in the future you read what people have to say before you respond in such a stupid manner.

For that, you sir are an idiot.

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't threads like this the reason pros stop posting to these Forums? I appreciate having a World Champion post here, but these attacks make guys like him and other top players go away. So is it really necessary to slam him? For the record my two cents says he's a good player, a nice guy,and he was fearless. Does that make him world class? It would take better players than me to know. But why slam him?

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? Zaxx and Desdia72 have said that Greg Raymer's success since the WSOP has been below par (which is true). They have also said that Arieh and Williams recieve nothing but negativity on 2+2 (which is partially true). They have both stated that Gregs play based on all the hype surrounding him on 2+2 doesn't support it (which is true). Not one post that I have read so far since I posted this response has slammed Greg Raymer. The only thing I have read so far are relative facts stating that Greg play since the WSOP doesn't deserve the hype he recieves since the victory, not that he's a bad player.

I'm sure everyone appreciates a World Champion post on this forum, I sure as hell do, but I also appreciate the people that step forward and debate something they believe to be wrong or biased, and I think everyone has the right do that.

So if you see otherwise, your definition of "being slammed" is ALOT different then mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

i could'nt have put it any better.