80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker

[Ray Zee]

your bet out was right on the river for a reason you didnt know. that was that the sucker is a better player than those telling you to check raise on the river.
he would have checked behind you even with an ace.

you played it far too well to be listening to advice. good luck.

[surfdoc]

How do you play this hand preflop Ray?

[mike l.]

"sucker is a better player than those telling you to check raise on the river. he would have checked behind you even with an ace."

um that would be evidence of him being a terrible player. sucker's correctly value betting an A there virtually every time id imagine.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
"sucker is a better player than those telling you to check raise on the river. he would have checked behind you even with an ace."

um that would be evidence of him being a terrible player. sucker's correctly value betting an A there virtually every time id imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I'm certainly accused of being called weak tight postflop, but I'VE BEEN KNOWN (meaning i don't do it alllll that often) of checking aces on the river here. There often is little or no value in betting. In fact, at higher limits, there is often negative value in betting.

Another reason for betting the river is the option to threebet.

Josh

[mike l.]

"There often is little or no value in betting. In fact, at higher limits, there is often negative value in betting."

in a standard live blind steal/cutoff poster situation like this all bb has done is said he has a willingness to win the pot (by c/ring the flop) and all sucker has done is said he has a willingness to see a showdown (by checking the turn). there's no reason for sucker to not bet A6 or whatever here and expect to get called by absolutely any pair from the bb and maybe K high. *especially* since it was a poster vs. poster hand.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you felt you were ahead on the flop... did you consider a 4 bet?

It seems to me that JA is very capable of going 3 bets on the flop with nothing, as well as with something. However, he is definitely less likely to go 5 bets with nothing.

If you put 4 bets in and lead the turn then you have the abiltiy to make JA define his hand properly. Especially, if you felt you had the best hand.

As the play turned out, I think I would let JA bluffvalue bet at the pot and c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not obvious we are ahead of JA until the turn. That said, I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play, but calling and cr-ing any flop from time to time is good too.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely... that a 3 bet preflop is a better play here. JA doesnt need much to open raise when he has already posted. His range is quite wide at this point and a 3 bet preflop is a great play against his possible range of hands.

My thought was that on the flop... since we have chosen to call preflop (which is a good play a small percentage of the time) a 4 bet on the flop will make JA define his hand. My sentiment was that JA can easily 3 bet here with any holding on the flop and as such a 4 bet is a strong play that needs to be considered b/c i don't feel he is likely to 5 bet with nothing his first hand at the table.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
You should seriously consider the ramifications of killing the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough.

[skp]

Hm...I simply can't see why Sucker (or anyone) would check the river with an ace.

To Recap:

Flop: 522

Action ends with Sucker's 3 bet.

Turn: Off suit Ten. check check

River: ace

OP checks. Why in the world would Sucker check with an Ace?

I don't get it.

I suppose the argument is that given how Sucker played the hand, he can't expect to get called by a worse hand (because the first hand that OP will put Sucker on when Sucker checks the turn is Ax.). But that then means that Sucker should also know that OP is a good player. OP may very well be a good player but Sucker can't know that since apparently they have not played each other very much.

Even the "I am up against a good player" argument shoudn't dissuade a bet from Sucker. Sucker was in a steal position preflop. Actually, he posted and then raised which guys tend to do with any two cards. He could have a flush draw, straight draw, Queen high or whatever. An Ace is not the only holding he can have when he checks he turn and bets the river (although it is prolly the most common holding given this pattern). So, it is not out of the question for someone in OP's shoes to look up Sucker with as little as King high in this spot.

Also, another reason for OP to check his Ace on the river is that it gives Sucker an opportunity to bluff.

Ray, we need some elaboration here, please.

BTW, I never made it out to the River Rock during the tourney. Apparently, you were there. I am sorry I missed you.

[skp]

I should have read this post before posting in reply to Ray's post.

I agree with you completely.

[J.A.Sucker]

Your suggestion of 4 betting the flop just sets him up for further heartache later. What do you do when you lead the turn and I pop it? I would have done this here. You don't have a pair, but folding is a sick issue because you made the pot gigantic.