Can I possibly call? Can I possibly fold? 1/2 live - Page 5

4_2_it · #41 10-17-2005, 05:32 PM

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Why would I call $60 on the river with a missed flush draw, though? and how could I possibly call his c/r?

This might be my own mental block on 'thinking outside the box', but I just can't conceive of this c/r with any non-boat to be anything less then atrocious.

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I agree his play was horrible, but it did get the best hand to fold. How would you play this hand from the flop on with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? If villain was in calling station mode and showing no aggression? Would you put villain on a set chasing a boat or put them on K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

While I don't like to venture into the mind of a donk, I can imagine the possibility that he thinks this a perfect situation to pull his Gus Hansen impersonation.

dtbog · #42 10-17-2005, 05:35 PM

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I agree his play was horrible, but it did get the best hand to fold.

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Right, but that's why this is so bad. It's a dry side pot. He doesn't care if I fold.

The chance that he is ahead of the all-in player with only trips seems miniscule.

The chance that I call his push without having KJo beat is literally 0%.

kurto · #43 10-17-2005, 06:06 PM

The difficult thing is knowing that you're against a donkish enough player who would make such an assinine play... Your read makes sense, even though its hard to imagine anyone playing QU that way. At the same time, someone who would make the river play the way he did, might also play a QJ this way....

Anyhoo... I think no matter what, you have to call. The other possibility that went through my mind was he might have been reading the better with a weak flush draw and was slowplaying the nutflush. He doesn't take you into account.

NYCNative · #44 10-17-2005, 06:07 PM

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...I'm calling on the boat draw... Yay, I have a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]You answered your own question.

[/ QUOTE ]This logic doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]How logical is it making that call on the turn specifically in the hopes that something hits, having it hit and then folding... Seems to me the logical thing to do is not make the turn bet at all, wouldn't you say?[ QUOTE ]

Does this mean that you must get stacked every time you hit your draw, no matter how obvious it is that someone else hit better?

[/ QUOTE ]I was unaware that this even remotely qualified as "obvious."

dtbog · #45 10-17-2005, 07:26 PM

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How logical is it making that call on the turn specifically in the hopes that something hits, having it hit and then folding... Seems to me the logical thing to do is not make the turn bet at all, wouldn't you say?

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I was unaware that this even remotely qualified as "obvious."

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I'm not saying that THIS hand is obvious, I'm saying that your logic is flawed.

If you really need me to come up with an example of a more clear-cut illustration of this, let me know.. but I think you can probably piece it together.

Once again... at the time when I called the turn, SB's hand range seemed wide enough to include many hands besides QJ/JJ/QQ.

To me, the river c/r seemed to narrow his hand range so drastically that he could only have a full house. Clearly I was wrong in this instance, but there are certainly many cases where you need to be willing to admit your previous assumption was wrong and not chase good money with bad.

NYCNative · #46 10-21-2005, 09:38 AM

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I'm not saying that THIS hand is obvious, I'm saying that your logic is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm basing my logic on this specific hand and you're missing an important point.

You need to think these things through before you make the call on the turn. You should realize *before* you make that investment what your expectations for the river are and how you will play it when the river reveals itself to be either a) what you wanted or b) not.

So the problem isn't my logic, it's yours when you called a turn bet without a plan. I just assumed that you had your plan since you said you were rooting for someting. Guess you didn't after all...

scrapperdog · #47 10-21-2005, 09:53 AM

That Jack was the card you wanted. If you are gonna play a set knowing a person has a flush when you do hit your fullhouse you cant fold it to a 1/3 pot re-raise on the end. If you are gonna fold when a J comes you might as well fold on the flop. You are gonna win this enough times to make the 100$ call on the end. I would estimate you will win at least half the time. This is even more so with 1 person you know has a flush and the other person "making donkey-esque plays".

The key to this hand is your flat call on river. By doing this you are showing weakness and inducing a bluff to have you fold a low flush. Yes the side pot was dry but really the MP could have had top pair top kicker with the ace of spades. You got exactly what you wanted ... dont fall for it against all but really tight players.

wslee00 · #48 10-21-2005, 11:36 AM

you showed absolutely no strength on either flop or turn - the flush guy does NOT put you on a full house. You can't really put the flush guy on the full house b/c
#1) he probably would have raised or bet that flop w/ a set
#2) you showed no strength during the hand, so he thinks his hand is good. he was HOPING you'd call his all-in. He put you on a lower flush or less.

dtbog · #49 10-21-2005, 11:47 AM

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So the problem isn't my logic, it's yours when you called a turn bet without a plan.

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If this is really what you got out of this whole discussion, then you seriously need to go back and reread some posts.

ericlambi · #50 10-21-2005, 11:52 AM

I think your fold was bad, if for no other reason than it is a live casino game with morons. The best guys at my local BM could probably not beat PP $50NL, and would make this dumbass play with AJ. But this will make you feel better.

PP NL $100NL. I have a stack of >$300. Villain has a stack of just over $200. I'm in the BB with Q8. A few limpers, I check. Flop comes:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet out $4. Two calls. Turn is

8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, EP player bets $8. MP folds. I call. Probably could have folded, but EPs bet seemed weak and I wanted to showdown my two pair. River is

Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

EP bets $11, I raise to $30.

He thinks for a while then asks if I have a flush. I tell him to call and find out.

He pushes. I call. EP shows QJ.

I've been gut wrentching over this hand for two weeks. I played it so badly and lost so much money, I'll probably never forget the hand. QJ was the only hand that made sense.