80-160 hand

[Skip Brutale]

I'd raise him whenever possible, you have top pair, play it as such!

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I am merely using the results to prove my point that he thought I was in light. I was correct in my read, and my plan is good, IMO. That's all.

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I don't agree w/ your line (your plan, I like the one you actually took), but don't care to debate that.

As for him thinking you were in light, I don't get why you are so sure that. You can be very strong and just not have an Ace. How about he was perhaps just trying to move you off of a non-ace hand with the flop checkraise and turn follow-through, say TT? If he thought you were really FOS, I don't see why he would expect you to pay off a river bet. It seems to me like he thought you had something marginally decent that would check behind rather than "putting you on nothing" as you thought.

Anyway, if you believe in your line, why does the running pair of sixes change your river raise plan? That's what I really don't get.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I am merely using the results to prove my point that he thought I was in light. I was correct in my read, and my plan is good, IMO. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you know that raising a non-7 card on the river is a joke then your analysis is fine. One second you are going to raise a non-scare card, then a non-scare card comes and you just call and say "Ah ha! I knew that was a bad card!" You didn't know it was a bad card, you knew that your plan to raise any "good" river sucked so you just called, and when he happened to have a hand that improved you patted yourself on the back and somehow convinced yourself that you would have raised some other card, gotten paid off, and laughed all the way to the cashier. You played the hand perfectly, don't second guess yourself because of the results.
-James

[Ray Zee]

how could he possibly think you are a maniac.




ill call susan up and have you thrown out next time you make a fuss.

[J.A.Sucker]

I'm dredging this thread back up again because El D wrote me and couldn't understand what on earth I was getting at. I wrote him the following PM, which I didn't want to post publicly, but he convinced me. Take it or leave it.

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I think I did respond to every post that needed response, but I will try to communicate my thoughts to you in PM. My decision to play the hand was straightforward, since I have position, and my hand is better than the ranges of hands that he has (though marginally so). Still, I have an A-hi, and I may have to show it down. I would not have 3 bet a hand like JTs, QT, or possibly QJ here (though I may have with this), which I normally would do, because there's no showdown value, and I figured that I was river bound this time.

The whole thing about this hand is that XXXXX probably thought I was going off. I also know that he thinks I'm a maniac on the button. He also thinks I'm too loose and aggressive.

Thus, when he checkraised me, I figured that he either had the draw, an A, which probably wasn't much better than mine (since he would have repopped it preflop, since he thought I was steaming) - and probably worse, actually making my kicker better than it seemed, or some other hand that hit a pair (a pocket pair also possible). The thing is that I won't autobet that flop there, though most people would. I often check the flop and raise the turn (usually with my worst hands and my best hands, but sometimes with a few others). Thus, if I have KQ, I'm checking the flop and raising the turn, since I really have few (if any) outs.

When checkraised, I really thought he was jerking around with me. I was almost positive. Thus, I figured I'd let him fire on all streets and then I'd pop the river, at which time he may pay me off with some relatively weak hands because he would find the hand strange, which it was. Plus, he may put me on a desperatoin hand. I think a baby or a non-club K would be the best cards for this (the K because the busted flush draw would call). I think he'd bet all of these hands on the river, since he didn't put me on an A, since he figured that I would raise it somewhere 10000% of the time.

If he does have the flush draw, then I would raise a "good" river, and he'd fold. Still, I get the bets in there anyway, since he'd fire the river. While it seems like I used revisionist history to play the hand out, I didn't. THat was my exact read. Come to think of it, the 6 is acually a great river card, and I should have raised it, since that would really look screwy. Normally, I just call the hand down, but I suppose you had to have been there.

What is more interesting is the way he played his hand. I don't understand it, at all. Usually, steamers never fold. If I'm not steaming, his plan is even worse. The flop checkraise bad, as I alluded to above. Even worse is his failure to checkriase the river when he hit his miracle. I'm either gonna bluff at the pot (and fold to his raise), or I will value bet my hand. Maybe he figured that I would check a hand like a pair behind on teh river, but according to the state of mind that I "should have" been in, I would never check behind there. I thought it was a really interesting hand, because my thought process is so counter to what is normally done. Still, you will probably disagree and think I should have done what I did do. Whatever. It's no big deal, and I'll leave the thread alone, because it didn't generate any discussion.

[mike l.]

"I'll leave the thread alone, because it didn't generate any discussion."

it will now.

ill try and come to the defense for your opponent. forget about this idea that he's convinced youre steaming or laggy or whatever. that's relevant to you and how you should play your hand, but let's pretend youre overemphasizing it and cutoff is more straightforward thinking than all that.

he flopped nothing, but knows you know he was trying to steal the blinds. so he goes ahead and checkraises the flop to see if youll buy that he has an A. you just call. so far so good he thinks.

the turn is a 6 thus pairing him up. now he is beating K high, 55, 44, and 33. maybe you have 88 and now youll fold the turn. im not saying this would be my thinking, im just saying it's pretty easy to understand how a mediocre player thinks. so he thinks: okay im going to follow through with a bet here, maybe he'll fold a better hand, or maybe ill catch up. his flop bluff turned into a turn semibluff.

river: he catches, he bets, he's pretty sure youre paying off. he doesnt want you to check behind with QQ or something, he's not sure if he can get a c/r in so he'll just bet his trips. he wins, he feels good about his play, he taught that sucker a lesson.

it's not so much that his thinking is severely flawed, it's just that it's not very deep. your full explanation of your play of the hand was a gift, a great great post that shows the sort of thinking an expert player goes through. the river raise finally makes sense. at the same time i dont think your opponent here would c/r the flop and then fire the turn and river and pay off a river raise w/ 55. although it's the fire the river part i think is least likely. i think with something like 77 or JJ he will check-call the river here, but might also pay off a turn raise and call the river, i think he's that bad given how he played this hand.