Abortion = less crime?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The cancer that is killed by chemo is life

[/ QUOTE ]

Cancer is not life, it is a term for uncontrolled cell division.

And I think you really missed the point, that Egocide is specifically referring to a human being. When does a human become a human? When the sperm meets the egg? Or when it takes its first gasp of air? Or where in between? His implication is that when sperm meets egg, it starts becoming a human being, and therefore, is a human being, and that by killing it, you are killing a human being, which is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I believe, yes. The point is that catholics believe life begins at one point, and some other people are under the impression it starts at another point, but no one really knows (at least in the sense of there not being a way to scientifically prove it). Therefore, it makes sense that we would not want to err on the side of what could be mass murder.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Atheist liberals are smart enough not to drink the KoolAid of religious dogma. The less people who have their lives dictated by the teachings of Jesus or Santa or the Easter Bunny the better off we are.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the millions slaughtered under Stalin and Mao would agree with you.

Stu

[Meech]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The cancer that is killed by chemo is life

[/ QUOTE ]

Cancer is not life, it is a term for uncontrolled cell division.

And I think you really missed the point, that Egocide is specifically referring to a human being. When does a human become a human? When the sperm meets the egg? Or when it takes its first gasp of air? Or where in between? His implication is that when sperm meets egg, it starts becoming a human being, and therefore, is a human being, and that by killing it, you are killing a human being, which is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I should have said cancerous cells.

I understood what question Ego was really trying to ask, but the anti-choice camp wears their self-annointed pro-life label proudly. You constantly see the question posed "when does life begin". Well, I chose to take that questions quite literally this time. I don't buy for a millisecond that the anti-choice camp is really, really, technically pro-life. Their majority position on death penalty cancels that out IMO.

The real question is, of course, at what point does this little ball of cells inherit the rights assigned in our constitution? The anti-choice camp would argue that it's the instant the spem and egg combine. I too, would disagree.

I'm not sure myself when that point is. Is it when the fetus looks human? Viability? When it can feel pain? I'm not sure. But I can guarantee that I won't find the answer with a preist or in the bible.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure myself when that point is. Is it when the fetus looks human? Viability? When it can feel pain? I'm not sure. But I can guarantee that I won't find the answer with a preist or in the bible

[/ QUOTE ]

Or the courts.

Stu

[Meech]

[ QUOTE ]
Or the courts.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. This is one issue which there will probably never be consensous on.

To me it comes down to a rights of the mother issue. Domain over ones body.

If we assume for a second that the instant the egg & sperm combine we have a human with full rights -- doesn't that carry legal obligations to the mother?

If she's jogging and miscarries, is this a crime?
If she falls down a flight of stairs -- negligent homicide?

At what point does the tail legally wag the dog?

[ QUOTE ]
When does life begin?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

all I needed to know. I just wanted to prove that nobody is sure of when life begins. So the pro choice groups saying that the fetus is definetly not a human being is wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
but the anti-choice camp

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, I could have easily called them the anti-life group and made them sound bad.

[Meech]

[ QUOTE ]

By the way, I could have easily called them the anti-life group and made them sound bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anti-Choice is more reflective of their views IMO. Or Anti-Abortion. Pro-life? What's that? Do you squash bugs? C'mon.

I can see a good Catholic soccer Mom with the "Choose Life" bumper sticker attending a pro-death penalty rally -- so the pro-life moniker just doesn't fly for the masses.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
To me it comes down to a rights of the mother issue. Domain over ones body.

If we assume for a second that the instant the egg & sperm combine we have a human with full rights -- doesn't that carry legal obligations to the mother?

If she's jogging and miscarries, is this a crime?
If she falls down a flight of stairs -- negligent homicide?


[/ QUOTE ]

Falling down a flight of stairs and having a miscarriage is a little bit differnt than carving your own child up into little bits while its still in your womb. One is an accident and the other is a willful action. Which one do you think is more likely to be a crime(at least morally if not legally)?

Stu

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

By the way, I could have easily called them the anti-life group and made them sound bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anti-Choice is more reflective of their views IMO. Or Anti-Abortion. Pro-life? What's that? Do you squash bugs? C'mon.

I can see a good Catholic soccer Mom with the "Choose Life" bumper sticker attending a pro-death penalty rally -- so the pro-life moniker just doesn't fly for the masses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe I already consented that supporting the death penalty is wrong. Look at my previous posts. However, this doesn't make the prolife groups point less valid, just some of their members. Have you ever heard of the Catholic Workers?

And saying that we can't be prolife because we sqaush bugs is a pretty immature statement. It refers to the life of human beings. (at least to those who are true pro lifers, not those who support the D.P.)

BTW, i am enjoying this conversation without TOO much mudslinging going on. Its a nice break.

[Meech]

[ QUOTE ]
Falling down a flight of stairs and having a miscarriage is a little bit differnt than carving your own child up into little bits while its still in your womb. One is an accident and the other is a willful action. Which one do you think is more likely to be a crime(at least morally if not legally)?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But let's say the mother does something risky. Some activity that causes or contributes to the death of a fetus. Kickboxing at week 1, or something similar.

Shouldn't some well meaning lawyer step up for the rights of the child? Shouldn't this type of negligence be punished?

If they are-indeed human beings with rights -- shouldn't they have full rights?