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#41
09-13-2005, 04:14 AM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ortiz is one of the top 4 or 5 hitters in the AL, but when you factor in that he is a DH, I believe several others pass him in "value." This is based on pure rate stats and doesn't include any "clutch" factors. [/ QUOTE ] First you claim there are a dozen players with better stats than Ortiz in the AL, now you claim Ortiz is only in the top 4 or 5 in the AL. Its just a suggestion, but maybe you could try actually looking at his stats? They are rivaled only by ARod's. [/ QUOTE ] ...and Jason Giambi... and Travis Hafner... and Vladimir Guerrero... [/ QUOTE ] Maybe if you look only at OPS as I know you love to do Jack, but Ortiz has between 100 and 160 more ABs than those guys along with a crapload more HRs, RBIs, 2Bs and Rs. We're talking MVP here, none of those 3 are in contention. 
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#42
09-13-2005, 04:22 AM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Ortiz is one of the top 4 or 5 hitters in the AL, but when you factor in that he is a DH, I believe several others pass him in "value." This is based on pure rate stats and doesn't include any "clutch" factors. [/ QUOTE ] First you claim there are a dozen players with better stats than Ortiz in the AL, now you claim Ortiz is only in the top 4 or 5 in the AL. [/ QUOTE ] My statements don't contradict each other. Ortiz is one of the 4 or 5 best HITTERS in the AL. He is several notches below that in overall value.
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#43
09-13-2005, 04:31 AM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ortiz is one of the top 4 or 5 hitters in the AL, but when you factor in that he is a DH, I believe several others pass him in "value." This is based on pure rate stats and doesn't include any "clutch" factors. [/ QUOTE ] First you claim there are a dozen players with better stats than Ortiz in the AL, now you claim Ortiz is only in the top 4 or 5 in the AL. Its just a suggestion, but maybe you could try actually looking at his stats? They are rivaled only by ARod's. [/ QUOTE ] ...and Jason Giambi... and Travis Hafner... and Vladimir Guerrero... [/ QUOTE ] and gary sheffield and mark texiria and maybe manny ramirez [/ QUOTE ] I'd put those guys right a step below Papi. Basically it goes like this for hitting stats: A-Rod in an otherwordly plane by himself. Jason Giambi, who'd be there if he'd played more. Ortiz, Vlad, and Hafner. Sheff, Manny, Roberts, Miggy, Big Sexy Konerko, Varitek, David Dellucci, Mike Sweeney, Mike Young, Jhonny Peralta, Derek Jeter, Victor Martinez... I think once you adjust for position it looks something like this: A-Rod Miggy Roberts Mike Young Vlad Jetes Teixeira Giambi/Ortiz/Hafner I'd say the gap between A-Rod and Cookie Monster is like 40 runs. Yeah, maybe Ortiz makes it up in clutchiness. [/ QUOTE ] This is essentially correct. Ortiz is way too far behind to make up the difference with clutchness. In fact, nobody really seems close. Tejada is the only player with stats that might warrant a discussion IF he led his team to the playoffs. Unlike others I do believe that there's nothing wrong with a small bonus for leading a team to a playoff birth. Not near as large a factor as Clarkmeister believes - but for instance, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to vote for Pujols instead of Lee since they are close in value. A-Rod is far and away superior to any player in the AL. Tejada is the closest - even if Baltimore did make the playoffs and the Yanks missed it, I don't think it'd be enough to push him over the top. Also, on "clutchness", I don't believe there is much predictive value in how a player performs in clutch situations. But there certainly is value in past clutch performances. We're not picking who is likely to be the more valuable player in the future here, we're picking who WAS the most valuable player. Thus, I don't see a problem with using performance in clutch situations as a small factor in the MVP debate. Regardless, A-Rod wins.
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#44
09-13-2005, 06:45 AM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ortiz is one of the top 4 or 5 hitters in the AL, but when you factor in that he is a DH, I believe several others pass him in "value." This is based on pure rate stats and doesn't include any "clutch" factors. [/ QUOTE ] First you claim there are a dozen players with better stats than Ortiz in the AL, now you claim Ortiz is only in the top 4 or 5 in the AL. [/ QUOTE ] My statements don't contradict each other. Ortiz is one of the 4 or 5 best HITTERS in the AL. He is several notches below that in overall value. [/ QUOTE ] Can you give me the 4 that you rank ahead of him? Or the 12 that have better stats? ("There have to be a dozen players with better "stats" than him.")
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#45
09-13-2005, 10:13 AM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
[ QUOTE ]
Don't play the field? No MVP. KJS [/ QUOTE ] I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. The DH is a position in the AL. Are you telling me that if someone hits .375, 80 HRs and 200 RBI one year as the DH (yeah yeah, i know, hypothetically though), you wouldn't name him MVP? Every award that is given out takes offense into account at least 75% offense. It just looks better if they play the field as well.
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#46
09-13-2005, 12:48 PM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
He wouldn't be MVP, in my opinion, because someone who does not contribute defensively is not as valuable as someone who does. Good defense can prevent runs. So if you are a great hitter and play great defense, your effect is greater. That is more than just looking good. That is helping your team win games more than one way.
KJS
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#47
09-13-2005, 12:57 PM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say the gap between A-Rod and Cookie Monster is like 40 runs. Yeah, maybe Ortiz makes it up in clutchiness. [/ QUOTE ] Out of curiosity, where's the 40 run difference coming from, and does it include defense?
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#48
09-13-2005, 12:59 PM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
[ QUOTE ]
He wouldn't be MVP, in my opinion, because someone who does not contribute defensively is not as valuable as someone who does. Good defense can prevent runs. So if you are a great hitter and play great defense, your effect is greater. That is more than just looking good. That is helping your team win games more than one way. KJS [/ QUOTE ] so you could never give manny an mvp, right? 
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#49
09-13-2005, 01:19 PM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] He wouldn't be MVP, in my opinion, because someone who does not contribute defensively is not as valuable as someone who does. Good defense can prevent runs. So if you are a great hitter and play great defense, your effect is greater. That is more than just looking good. That is helping your team win games more than one way. KJS [/ QUOTE ] so you could never give manny an mvp, right? [/ QUOTE ] hahahahahah. i <3 manny. it's weird. he can screw up the most routine fly balls and then make a leaping over the shoulder into the wall catch the very next play.
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#50
09-13-2005, 06:54 PM
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Re: BIG PAPI = M V P
unFCUKINGreal
I am listenting to the pregame show on EEI to maybe get an update on damon and jerry remy is being interviewed. now as far as TV color guys go, remy is top notch. so imagine the taste in my mouth when he says "the only player in the AL WITH A SHOT to beat ortiz is arod" a local beat writer (with a MVP vote) then gets on and says him being a DH should in no way affect the MVP voting but understand 'sadly' it will. WTF???????? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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