$109s - AT Hand - Page 5

durron597 · #41 09-09-2005, 02:06 PM

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shouldn't you be more comfortable just calling if it's less likely a flush draw is out?

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Well, the thing is that if a diamond comes off on the turn I know that I have outs on the river if I am behind so I'm more comfortable playing a big pot. But I don't mind calling either.

Unarmed · #42 09-09-2005, 02:32 PM

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Ok no one wants to comment. FINE! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
I, of course, folded to BB's set/two pair/massive draw.
Oh wait, he had JTo. CO had 89o.

Further supporting the theory that one should never lay down TPTK on level 1 to any action. Period. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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This really is a horrible flop fold; what flop were you looking for when you called preflop?

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Wait.
You do know the action went like this right: (see my post halfway up the page if you want my thoughts on the initial flop play... actually f*ck here you go)

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I raised to pot. (too little?) If I was closing the action, I'd prefer to call and keep the pot small. Also, I'd really like to peel off the turn before I commmit a large chunk of my stack with TPTK. But in this exact spot, I hate calling because then the other two to act behind me are getting 23523422-1 odds to come along for the ride. I certainly considered folding, and would have two weeks ago. However, this is new and improved aggro-Unarmed and I don't make these laydowns on level 1 anymore.

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1000)
Button (t970)
SB (t1030)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, 2 folds, Hero calls t15, 2 folds, CO calls t15, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets t75, UTG calls t75, Hero raises to t225, CO calls t225, SB folds, BB raises to t745 (All-In), UTG folds, Hero folds

#43 09-09-2005, 02:38 PM

I'm raising here. No doubt about it. And it ends the discussion also b/c you know where you are in the hand. Not to mention a raise also will probably get you a free card on the turn if no diamond hits.

durron597 · #44 09-09-2005, 02:41 PM

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Ok no one wants to comment. FINE! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
I, of course, folded to BB's set/two pair/massive draw.
Oh wait, he had JTo. CO had 89o.

Further supporting the theory that one should never lay down TPTK on level 1 to any action. Period. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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This really is a horrible flop fold; what flop were you looking for when you called preflop?

Unfortunately the stacks are not deep enough for you to profitably protect your hand against two opponents, so I would call and hope a non diamond comes on the turn. If you had the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I would raise.

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Disregard this post, because I managed to completely not see this post:

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So I raise here or fold here, but limping is no good.
Ok, that makes sense. I'm just into seeing flops with whatever on level 1 because it costs next to nothing and the play is so terrible. However, a multiway flop isn't exactly fun times for AT, as this hand so nicely illustrates.

Flop Action:

I raised to pot. (too little?) If I was closing the action, I'd prefer to call and keep the pot small. Also, I'd really like to peel off the turn before I commmit a large chunk of my stack with TPTK. But in this exact spot, I hate calling because then the other two to act behind me are getting 23523422-1 odds to come along for the ride. I certainly considered folding, and would have two weeks ago. However, this is new and improved aggro-Unarmed and I don't make these laydowns on level 1 anymore.

More Flop Action:

CO calls the 225, BB goes all-in, and UTG folds. Oops. Easy fold? What if CO had folded to the 225 and BB pushed?

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Yea, this is why I like just calling the flop and seeing if a diamond hits the turn.

45suited · #45 09-09-2005, 02:42 PM

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I'm raising here. No doubt about it. And it ends the discussion also b/c you know where you are in the hand.

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Damn, I hate raising with a weak made hand, on a multi way, draw heavy board in an unraised pot just to find out where I'm at. Especially after a pot sized bet and a call on the flop.

225 chips seems like a lot to pay to find out where you're at...

Unarmed · #46 09-09-2005, 02:44 PM

I don't want to find out where I am, I want to shut out the two guys to act behind me. Like I said, if I'm last to act, this is a very easy call for me. Is it still a call even with the other two guys there?

durron597 · #47 09-09-2005, 02:46 PM

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I don't want to find out where I am, I want to shut out the two guys to act behind me. Like I said, if I'm last to act, this is a very easy call for me. Is it still a call even with the other two guys there?

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The problem is that it reopens the betting from the BB and it costs you too much of your stack to shut out the other guys.

Unarmed · #48 09-09-2005, 02:50 PM

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The problem is that it reopens the betting from the BB

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How often does BB push a hand that I beat here? In my experience draws and weak Ts normally flat call that raise. Meh, maybe I just put to much importance on the other guys in the hand.

#49 09-09-2005, 02:52 PM

Well unfortunately that's your punishment for even playing the hand to begin with and getting caught up in this. But that's besides the point. Raise here, maybe take it down right there...doubtful but wishful thinking. No diamond hits on turn, it's likely to be checked, and now your in a whole different type of mess. You can either give a free card to see if u can catch your ace, or maybe 3 of a kind. Doubt ur shutting anyone out without pushing all ur chips in the middle though.

45suited · #50 09-09-2005, 02:54 PM

I know that you were not raising for that reason, I was responding to the logic of raising to find out where you're at.

The problem is that precisely what happened is liable to happen. Think about what hands you would pot bet from the BB here. (He had an OESD, right?) I know that if I pot bet from the BB and faced a raise, I could easily have a hand that I could push as well. I suspect that the same is true for you.

To answer your question, if I were last to act, I would have called here. People can call me weak-tight, but you were not closing the action and your hand just wasn't all that strong multi-way when there a gazillion turn cards that can beat you if you are currently ahead.

But I guess that's just my L1 mindset. I understand that other winning players think differently, and I'm never one to claim that there is only one "correct" way to play.