Manual Drivers: Are they better drivers?

[astroglide]

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You're slowing down for a stop light, and someone coming up behind you isn't paying attention and is about to rear-end you. I'm already in gear, so I jam on the throttle and avoid this accident. You have to pop it into gear, reef the clutch out (which slows you down more), and then accelerate.

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jam on the throttle and...run into another car that's slowing down for the light? run off the road? run the light and head into oncoming traffic? i'm still at cruising speed and i can still maneuver the car even if i never go into gear.

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Someone from a side street suddenly jumps out right as you're passing. You have no time to brake, but you can avoid the side collision if you get on throttle.

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i assume you don't mean "passing" as in "passing another vehicle", because in that case i would be in some sort of gear. if something like this occurs so quickly i'm challenged to think it likely to be able to assess the situation, determine that an accident is unavoidable, and accellerate in the hopes of having a 'better' accident. am i supposed to be in 3rd gear or lower here? flooring it in 4th or higher with a second or less isn't going to do a whole lot in terms of motion and i think it's just going to increase the collision speed, racking up the odds for neck/back-bouncing injuries or losing control of the vehicle if it's a "rear side" impact.

i can honestly say in many years of driving i have never seen a situation where i feel like it would be more useful to jam, but if i were i still even think that i'd rather be in neutral because i could gear up to 3rd and actually move. i can't think of a practical need to be in gear at all times.

[astroglide]

i'd also like to note that i have actually seen an accident occur as a result of somebody pre-gearing to first at a stopsign. they were coming in to stop, clearly had geared the car into first and were riding the clutch/brake before stopping. their foot must have come off of the clutch for some reason, because they instantly shook/killed the car and the person behind them ran into them. i see stick drivers pre-gear all the time and i think it's a dangerous habit with no worthwhile upside.

[CORed]

Actually, if you revmatch correctly, you are putting very little wear on the clutch. That said, my usual technique when going through a curve or corner that requires a downshift is to brake with the clutch disengaged while downshifting the transmission while decelerating, and re-engage the clutch in the lower gear when I'm ready to accelerate out of the curve. I've tried the heel-and toe technique, but i really don't find it to be worth the trouble in normal driving.

I used to drive a Scout that had no synchro for first gear. I got pretty good at double clutching.

[CORed]

Double clutching is not necessary for a synchromesh transmission. Doing so (correctly) does reduce the wear on the synchronizing clutches. OTOH, I don't double clutch, I have run several vehicles until they were junk, and the transmission was still working fine on all of them. Generally speaking, a manual transmission will outlast most other components of a car. The same is not always true of automatics. You may go through two or three clutches in the life of a car, though.

Revmatching before engaging the clutch (without a double clutch) on both upshifts and downshifts (eapecially downshfts) reduces wear on the clutch. Ideally, the only time you should have any slippage of the clutch is on a standing (or nearly standing) start, in first gear. In practice, you usually don't match perfectly, so there is a little slippage on shifts.

[johnc]

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I think guys and better drivers are drawn to sticks, because they make you consciously drive more and pay attention to the road more, which is a good thing. However, that's also the group more likely to let their ego get into their driving, and more natural risk takers.

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I agree somewhat. Younger drivers definately have more potential to be better drivers(in general) ie quicker reaction, better motor skills, better vision, hearing, ect. but the real problem is the vast majority lack the judgemnt skills necessary to be a safe driver, IMO.

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Soccer Mom doesn't want to test the limits of her Volvo station wagon, and even though she probably handles her car worse than a lot of 22 year old hotshot boys, for the purposes that count, she probably IS a better driver. No mad skillz, but being a good driver is about a lot more than that. Especially the important/boring parts.

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Yeah, but she's usually the one whose got a cell phone in her ear, turned around yelling at her kids, and sipping on a latte from Starbucks (ok, I embelished that last point). Safe?

[DasLeben]

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i can honestly say in many years of driving i have never seen a situation where i feel like it would be more useful to jam, but if i were i still even think that i'd rather be in neutral because i could gear up to 3rd and actually move.

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You're definitely missing what I'm trying to convey. You say that you'd rather be in neutral so that you can put it into 3rd and accelerate if you have to. My point is that I'm already in third, and constantly downshifting as I slow down so that I'm always in the correct gear for my speed. If I'm heel-toeing quickly, I'm able to downshift in one second or less. This is opposed to being out of gear and unready to take action immediately if need be.

Also, as I've already said, heel-toeing allows you to preselect the appropriate gear to exit a corner with. I can complete a downshift smoothly and efficiently while approaching the corner, and then be able to keep both hands on the wheel for safety.

Also, heel-toeing correctly eliminates wear on the clutch. Putting the shifter into the next lower gear and then simply pulling the clutch out makes for a decent amount of clutch slip. Your clutch and mounts are going to suffer as you pull the clutch out swiftly without revmatching.

I'd also like to point out that no, double-clutching is not necessary on modern gearboxes with synchros. I'm being nice to the old synchros on my truck, so double-clutching is a good way to save wear and quicken my downshifts (no pause at the synchro). Newer cars generally have no problem with this, and you won't notice much of a difference between a single-clutch and a double-clutch revmatch. That said, I still do double-clutch in newer cars, but only because I'm used to doing it. I don't have to do it, I prefer to do it.

[astroglide]

i understand what you are trying to convey. i don't see realistic situations where i would suddenly be forced to floor it in order to avoid danger. if you are always in the correct gear for your speed, you're not going to get a phenomenal amount of push if you floor it anyway. that is, unless you like to hang out at 4000 rpms.

i cannot see a situation where i would need to be in the appropriate gear for my vehicle (say 4th gear around 30mph) and be forced to floor it to avoid danger, where my accelleration in half a second would spell the difference between a problem and no problem.

[DasLeben]

Hi everyone, I am DasLeben's friend, and the one who taught him how to heel and toe etc. He hit the point fairly well, but there are some things I would like to touch on.
First off, coasting in neutral is not a smart thing to do. His examples were a little extreme when talking about being in the correct gear, but it has a lot of truth to it. I almost got hit on the right rear of my car (just behind the passanger door) by someone who was running a red light. Since I was in the correct gear, I was able to accelerate away from the situation, and the idiot in his SUV missed my car. Had I hit the brakes, he would have hit me. Just one example.
Certain cars like FWD's for example get stabalized by power applications. Drive a FWD car is icy or slippery conditions, and the ability to stabalize the car with a power application comes in handy. If you are out of gear or in a gear that is too high, you wont maximize the torque to the wheels, and you might not be able to stabalize the car enough.
As for the comment regarding new transmissions not needing rev matching, I recomend studying up a little bit on the principals of operation of a manual tranny. You dont need to rev match for the trannys sake, rather you do it due to the disparity of rotational speeds between the road speed of the car (how fast the tires are spinning) and the correct engine rpm in the gear you have selected. If you dont blip the rpms up, the clutch and the momentum of the car forces the engine rpms up to where they should be.
Why is it important not to force the rpms up with the clutch, and why is rev matching important? When you drag the clutch out slowly, you not only wear the clutch, but you destabalize the car. If you donwshift without a blip, you can lock a tire up when the clutch comes out if you pull the clutch out too quickly. Try doing it in rain or in snow, and if you have a RWD car it is an easy way to spin. As a matter of fact, letting the clutch out without blipping does such a good job at getting the back end of a rwd car out that I use that technique when I want to drift. I dont know about you guys, but when I drive on the streets with my family in the car I want to drive in a manner that reduces any chance of an accident, so keeping the car stable and in the best position to aviod an accident is paramount.
I still dont understand what was meant by direct downshifting. Can that be cleared up?
Somewhere in the thread it was implied that heel and toeing is slowing the car down with compression braking. Just for clarification, you are slowing down using the brakes alone, but you are keeping the car in the correct gear.
For the record, even modern trannys that are synchromesh can benefit from being double clutched. Ever gone 25mph and tried to select 1st? Most of the time, if it goes into gear, it takes some time. Double clutch, and it slots right in. When skipping gears (say you need to pass a bus load of nuns on a two lane road) a double clutch downshift will get you into the lower gear faster, as there is no work for the synchros to do, hence the shifter wont pause going into gear like it usually does. If you merely put the clutch in, select the lower gear, pull the clutch out and then get going on the throttle you have not only slowed the car down, but you have made more work for the tranny and engine mounts, the clutch, and the synchros. If you can negate almost all of that extra work with a simple blip of the throttle, why wouldnt you?
Finally, are stick drivers better than auto drivers? Noone can say with any degree of accuracy. I know everyone has their opinions on the matter, with associated statements that can be asinine at best. How well one drives is a function of that persons driving ability, their desire for safe driving practices, their personal motivation to learn how to drive in the best manner possible, and mostly their situational awareness. Driving stick is not the cure all for that. It only means the driver knows how to operate another system of the car, which although can be integral to safe operation of the car, is usually operated in an unsafe manner. Most stick drivers I have driven with has basic fundamental problems with driving stick. Things like up or downshifting during corners, not being in the correct gear, destabalizing the car when shifting, etc. Now, if you understand physics of driving well, those things arent issues. However, the general population of drivers doesnt have a clue on how to drive a car in any situation other than point A to point B, what to do in an emergency, or cause and effect results from their action behind the wheel. Whether and auto or stick, most drivers in the US dont know what the hell they are doing.
The only point about stick drivers that I do agree with is more enthusiasts are drawn towards sticks. Difference there is that for every person who knows what they are doing with a stick, there are plenty of others who think that they know what they are doing, but who really dont.
Ok, I think I flogged this one to death. If you disagree with anything I have said, I am open to discussion on this. Feel free to post back, as I'll check in on this. Just remember, I am not DasLeben, so he assumes no responsibility for any emotions that might come out as a result of this post.
BTW, if anyone wants to learn how to heel and toe or rev match, I wrote up an explaination at a board I frequent. Here is the link.
Whether you drive stick or an auto, have fun and be safe out there guys!

[mostsmooth]

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Ok, have fun shifting and clutching all day when you are in bad traffic. I just want to get from point A to point B.

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have fun paying more for your car, getting worse gas mileage, and repairing your tran$mi$$ion.

[mostsmooth]

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Exactly. I don't see people with manual transmissions sliding back into my front bumper, but it's happened plenty of time with all the "experts" driving sticks.

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youre not supposed to stop that close to the car in front of you. you are supposed to be a car length back. i doubt the awful stick driver in front of you drifted back a full car length, and if he did, you would have plenty of time to move back or use your horn or something, unless you just sat there and watched it happen?