Will Rove Resign?

[hetron]

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Liberal wasn't my word it was the word Rove used.
My point is why all the Dems spazzed.
He dodn't say Dems he said liberal.
Are all Dems libs?
I hope not.

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[kurto]

Hello, Greg.

don't get me wrong,.. I think Kerry is partially to blame for this misperception. As I pointed out, both Bush and Kerry would have voted Yes once and No once on this issue. The difference is that Kerry allowed them to paint him as wishy washy and repeat the falsehood that it was the same bill each time.

Kerry was a terrible campaigner. He didn't effectively counter the way he was portrayed.

At the same time, I also lay blame at the people who don't look beyond what the politicans are saying to see what really happened. If every voter (including Bush supporters) said, "Wait a minute Bush, you voted no and then voted yes.... why are you any less wishy washy" then perhaps our politicians would be forced to be a little more honest and the REAL ISSUES could be addressed. No?

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Is it true? Who cares? The people will buy it!

[/ QUOTE ] I would argue that this is an indictment of the people. The people who buy it are the larger part of the problem. (and this goes for both sides.)

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I don't blame Rove, or the Republicans. I put the blame where it belongs -- on the idiots of the state of GA.


[/ QUOTE ] Well, there's plenty of blame to go around. This reminds me of a discussion in college that went something like this...

I said, "if Howie (a skinny friend of ours) walked around a known crime ridden area with hundred dollar bills sticking out of his pockets and he was mugged... I would be furious with him. He SHOULDN'T be mugged. And nothing excuses the criminals who mugged him. But at the same time, his actions would be stupid and he put himself in harm's way."

To bring it back to this... the people of Georgia are walking around with $100 bills sticking out of their pockets... Rove would be the one mugging them.

You can't excuse Rove for being dishonest and dirty just because the people are stupid enough to buy it. They're all responsible but in different ways.

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I guess my point is, stereotypes usually exist for a reason, but buying into these stereotypes is for suckers. It's okay to make this distinction.

[/ QUOTE ] I've been trying to clarify my position. I agree that some stereotypes are based in reality. But many are not. Many stereotypes are created based on a single incident. Many are fabricated out of thin air. I don't get the impression most people take the time to examine the stereotypes they hold to see just how valid they are or where they're coming from. Most of us pick up stereotypes we hear from others and repeat them with little thought. If we're lucky, we might have an open mind and dispel the ones that are ridiculous.

In terms of the military one: I think that every time the Republicans disagree with the Democrats on a military matter, they frame it to say that the Democrats are being weak, even if that's not the case (or even the heart of the issue). Those who want to believe what their side says, hears the stereotype and don't look any further. (just like hardly any Bush supporters stopped and said, "Bush is being just as wishy washy on the 87 million here as Kerry was."

I think this last part was a verbose way of saying, "we mostly agree."

Sometimes I just ramble and ramble.

[kurto]

For the record: I think what Rove says is complete BS.

BUT, I have respect for Rove as a professional. He is by far the most effective propagandist that has operated in American politics in my lifetime. He knows what is effective with the people he wants to reach and he does it well. He's dirty, but he's talented.

[andyfox]

It's amazing to me how angry the Republicans always are. They're winning, why so much hostility?

[superleeds]

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It's amazing to me how angry the Republicans always are. They're winning, why so much hostility?

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Cause deep down after 5 years they can see what an incompetent bunch of cunts they are

[Felix_Nietsche]

Liberals.

So are all the Democrats that are criticizing Rove indirectly admitting they are liberals?
Hmmmmmm.....they don't admit this when they're running for election.

[kurto]

As if he didn't notice that Rove and a the people he's talking to label anyone who disagrees with them as liberals.

And even if we thought he didn't mean Democrats... he's still slandering millions of liberals.

[BCPVP]

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but my point which you seem intent on ignoring is that the PERCEPTION is wrong; it is based on a fallacy. Bush said NO to the 87 million then he said yes when it was offered in DIFFERENT piece of legislation. Kerry voted YES at first and voted NO on a completely different piece of legislation.

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Then we're arguing about two different things. And I think perceptions people have are often fairly subjective. Not to mention partially based on stereotypes, which aren't always bad or necessarily incorrect.

I'm going to skip past the Durbin stuff you wrote. Suffice to say, that many people believe Durbin compared some of our troops to nazis. You may agree with him if you like, but ask a few military men what they think about a U.S. Senator calling these men Nazis and worse. And don't be surprised if they also feel offended by the remarks.

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Do YOU think its idiotic or not?

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I'm not in the military, so I'm not the right person to ask. Ask Vulturesrow how he feels about Durbin's comments. He could give you a better perspective than I. I would guess that many military men would be offended if a high-ranking U.S. Senator likened fellow military to Nazis (especially in a such a way that had no proportion at all).

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I think I have more then a few quotes. You and I have had a number of lengthy discussions.

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Please. You really don't know me. You may think you do, based on a few discussions, but you don't.

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Actually, no. That's my point. Believe it or not, this has been studied. They've found that there's NO element of truth to this.

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What you're arguing now is that no black men have large penises. Is that really your contention? Stereotypes will usually fit some members of a group, but not necessarily all. It's when people take a stereotype and begin applying it to all members within that group that we get in trouble.

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My point though is that many of these stereotypes aren't based on anything. And that stereotypes can be created simply by repitition, even if there's no truth to them.

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I disagree. My point has always been that there is an element (large or small) of truth to a stereotype or they wouldn't exist. How that stereotype comes into being may influence how accurate it is, but to say that many stereotypes are based on nothing is foolish, imo.

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If a perception is based on a stereotype and the stereotype is outdated or based on an isolated incident as opposed to a general quality about the group... then it doesn't apply to the entire group.

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FYP.
What we're talking about are people's perceptions of others' behavior. Just because you don't agree with their perception (or it doesn't apply to everyone)doesn't make it wrong. That's my point; I'm done debating this.

[kurto]

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Suffice to say, that many people believe Durbin compared some of our troops to nazis.

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Yes. For example, he may have compared 50 troops out of 160,000 to Nazis. It would seem pretty stupid to think that someone criticizing less then 1/10 of 1% of a group, criticizing them for specific misdeeds, if criticizing the other 99.9%.

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And don't be surprised if they also feel offended by the remarks.


[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps people should calm down and try to look objectively at what he said.

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Do YOU think its idiotic or not?

I'm not in the military, so I'm not the right person to ask

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I don't mean just this case. I mean the whole notion of "criticize one person, you criticize everyone." I like the cop example. Say a cop murders his wife. Do you think all the cops should stick up for him simply because he's a cop? If someone in the military did something wrong, his wrongdoing should besmirches the military more then someone criticizing that individual.

Is this not common sense?

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Please. You really don't know me. You may think you do, based on a few discussions, but you don't.

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I don't know you. But I know how you present yourself on this forum, for what that's worth.

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What you're arguing now is that no black men have large penises. Is that really your contention? Stereotypes will usually fit some members of a group, but not necessarily all. It's when people take a stereotype and begin applying it to all members within that group that we get in trouble.


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Come on. I'm NOT saying no there can't be a black person with a large penis. The stereotype is that black men are well endowed. ie.. as a race, they have larger penises then white men. When studied, they've found NO differences between races. ie... if you took 50 white men, 50 black men and 50 asians... they'd all be about average. There's NO statistical difference. So, the stereotype that Black men have large penises is completely a myth.

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My point has always been that there is an element (large or small) of truth to a stereotype or they wouldn't exist.

[/ QUOTE ] Sigh. I just gave an example which shows that there there is NO truth to the above stereotype. There doesn't HAVE to be any truth to a stereotype. That doesn't mean ALL stereotypes aren't based on some truth. But it is simply wrong to say that all stereotypes are based in truth. This isn't difficult.

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but to say that many stereotypes are based on nothing is foolish, imo.


[/ QUOTE ] Sigh. This has been studied. Its quite easy for stereotypes to develop within the mind of an individual or a group based on nothing more then a person's first impression of ONE person. That person then extrapolates that the SINGLE person they met represents ALL people of that class. Then, whenever they see anything that supports that stereotype, they note it and allow it to reinforce the stereotype. Anything that contradicts the stereotype is ignored.

This phenonomen is seen ALL the time in Poker. "Party Poker is Rigged because the flush draw against me always hits." "aces always lose." etc.

You're debating a well established and studied phenomenon.

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What we're talking about are people's perceptions of others' behavior. Just because you don't agree with their perception (or it doesn't apply to everyone)doesn't make it wrong.

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A perception can be right or wrong. "It was my perception that were bluffing." The person either was bluffing or they weren't. It can be your perception that a stereotype is correct, but you can be flat out wrong. (For instance, you still seem to think all stereotypes are based on some truth.... yet studies have shown that the stereotype about black men is certifiably false. Even though its been studied, you still insist that the stereotype isnt based in fiction.

I can see why you're finished. You insist that something must be true because the stereotype exists even if its been investigated and proven to be wrong. No point arguing if you think your opinions trump science and psychology.

[adios]

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I support socialized medicine. I support higher taxes, especially if you make more money. I support civil liberties, and the freedom to express unpopular, or even blatently wrong positions. I support gay rights. I think government is not necessarily bad, but can be a force for good to improve people's lives. I think the war on poverty was a just cause, and should not have been abandoned.

1) Does this make me a "liberal" to you?

2) Okay, if you say yes, then please explain how does this make me wimpy with regards to kicking the living hell out of any psychopath that wants to fly planes into building, murdering innocent men women and children.

Seriously dude. This is an issue I think we can agree on.

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So you're in favor of the detainment of such people at Guantanamo Bay?