Durbin's Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo

[kurto]

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Second, the fact that some torture, or something somehow resembling torture, may be occurring somewhere, in no way refutes the statement that al-Qaeda operatives are trained to charge torture and Koran abuse.

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Because it doesn't matter what AL Queda is trained to do. It doesn't matter if they're trained to cut themselves and blame it on other people. What is important is we know that members of OUR military have confirmed that torture has taken place in our prisons. It is not speculation. We beat a man who is presumed to be an innocent cab driver to death. We have hung people from chains attached to their wrists. Its really tiring seeing you try to pretend otherwise. The evidence is from the military's own reports.

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So no, I don't think they should have been provided Korans.


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Well... its good you don't run the prisons. Your shortsidedness and lack of understanding about what the war is really about would clearly make things worse.

Your defenses get more and more bizarre each post. I suppose we should pull Bibles from all the prisons too since some criminals justify their acts in the name of God?

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Why give them the book that will confirm in their minds that killing infidels is just, and God's will; and why give them a source of internal psychological strength. If we are seeking information from them to prevent future terrorist attacks, better to break them psychologically. They should have no Korans in my opinion. The only practical reason to give them Korans would be to pacify the outside Muslim world. But even better in my opinion would be to tell the outside Muslim world that the reason the detainees don't get Korans is because they used the Koran to justify attacking and killing non-Muslims.


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Just pretend that the reasons they attack us have nothing to do with our actions in the middle east. Pretend its all about the Koran. These people wake up and attack the US because of the Koran... lol Yep. That's what its about.

The things you defend and the weird turns of logic you take and a marvel to watch.

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Agreed, we shouldn't dismiss any potential wrongdoing but we should keep it in perspective. Keeping things in perspective is THE WHOLE POINT of such comparisons. More such comparisons ought to be made because far too persons many seem to have lost all sense of perspective.

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No. The people who are saying, "Hey, its not so bad when you see what BLANK country does"... are trying to excuse something that they know is wrong. They aren't trying to keep it in perspective. They're trying to ignore it and deny it.

Look at the partisan rubes you're joining in. Some of your peers are denying that anything has ever happened. Then, when they learn we beat 2 people to death, they say, "big deal, it was only 2 people." They read the reports about the torture and pretend its nothing more then someone turning up the Air conditioning. The ignorance ("no one's been tortured. No one's been killed.") is astounding. Adios or Tripin (I forget which) thought Durbin just made up the report. He suggested since he didn't read it himself, Durbin must be lying. Then, when the FBI confirms the report, he changes his argument again.

I really think its quite pathetic.

And then, rathar then face the real issue, they do what children do.... try to diminish their wrongdoing by pointing out what other people did. We may be torturing people... but other countries torture MORE... so its okay that we do it.

Never once do they express outrage at the outrage we've done and demand better. Matter of fact, they ATTACK people who are outraged.

I'm sorry, but there's so much shallowness coming from the right that I get a little disgusted.

[MMMMMM]

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Second, the fact that some torture, or something somehow resembling torture, may be occurring somewhere, in no way refutes the statement that al-Qaeda operatives are trained to charge torture and Koran abuse.
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Because it doesn't matter what AL Queda is trained to do. It doesn't matter if they're trained to cut themselves and blame it on other people. What is important is we know that members of OUR military have confirmed that torture has taken place in our prisons. It is not speculation. We beat a man who is presumed to be an innocent cab driver to death. We have hung people from chains attached to their wrists. Its really tiring seeing you try to pretend otherwise. The evidence is from the military's own reports.

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Well you claimed the statement was incorrect. I asked you to show where it is incorrect and you certainly did not do that just now.

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So no, I don't think they should have been provided Korans.
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Well... its good you don't run the prisons. Your shortsidedness and lack of understanding about what the war is really about would clearly make things worse.

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My understanding of it is far deeper than yours I believe.

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Your defenses get more and more bizarre each post. I suppose we should pull Bibles from all the prisons too since some criminals justify their acts in the name of God?

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It isn't just a few Muslims committing terrorism in the name of Islam; it's LOTS of them doing it, in organized fashion, and publicly proclaiming it, too.

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Why give them the book that will confirm in their minds that killing infidels is just, and God's will; and why give them a source of internal psychological strength. If we are seeking information from them to prevent future terrorist attacks, better to break them psychologically. They should have no Korans in my opinion. The only practical reason to give them Korans would be to pacify the outside Muslim world. But even better in my opinion would be to tell the outside Muslim world that the reason the detainees don't get Korans is because they used the Koran to justify attacking and killing non-Muslims.

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Just pretend that the reasons they attack us have nothing to do with our actions in the middle east. Pretend its all about the Koran. These people wake up and attack the US because of the Koran... lol Yep. That's what its about.

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The attacks have more to do with the messages in the Koran, and Wahhabism, than with our actions in the Middle East. Both are factors but I would guesstimate it is about 80% due to a blind fanaticism which follows the explicit religious message exactly.

By the way, similar aggressions against non-Muslims have taken place throughout several historical periods starting with Muhammad himself. Jihad has primarily been, historically speaking, an violent outward expansionist movement with its roots deep in the Koran. Muhammad led many military campaigns of conquest and pillage and slaughter, and the non-Muslim women and children were taken by the Muslim armies as concubines and slaves whilst the non-Muslim men were generally killed. Today's jihadists are following the word of the Koran and in Muhammad's footsteps to the extent they can but fortunately for us they have an uphill fight due to our greater strength.

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The things you defend and the weird turns of logic you take and a marvel to watch.

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I'm believe I'm just more informed than you about certain things and this is one of them.

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Agreed, we shouldn't dismiss any potential wrongdoing but we should keep it in perspective. Keeping things in perspective is THE WHOLE POINT of such comparisons. More such comparisons ought to be made because far too persons many seem to have lost all sense of perspective.
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No. The people who are saying, "Hey, its not so bad when you see what BLANK country does"... are trying to excuse something that they know is wrong. They aren't trying to keep it in perspective. They're trying to ignore it and deny it.

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What you seem not to be considering is that this isn't an abstract exercise to see how close we can come to perfection ourselves while living in a vacuum. We have REAL OPPONENTS who have interests and mindsets diametrically opposed to our own.

What that means is that comparison is extremely important, because if we just introspect and blame ouselves for every less-than-perfection, our opponents will NOT do the same with themselves--hell no, rather they will join and amplify the chorus of blaming us and thereby gain political points and leverage. In other words they see this as an ultimate and deadly serious game and will continue to use a double-standard against us and capitalize on any weakness they can spot. So it is very important to point out double-standards, and also where they are failing to live up to the most basic human rights.

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Look at the partisan rubes you're joining in. Some of your peers are denying that anything has ever happened. Then, when they learn we beat 2 people to death, they say, "big deal, it was only 2 people." They read the reports about the torture and pretend its nothing more then someone turning up the Air conditioning. The ignorance ("no one's been tortured. No one's been killed.") is astounding. Adios or Tripin (I forget which) thought Durbin just made up the report. He suggested since he didn't read it himself, Durbin must be lying. Then, when the FBI confirms the report, he changes his argument again.

I really think its quite pathetic.

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I think you need more facts as Adios pointed out.

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And then, rathar then face the real issue, they do what children do.... try to diminish their wrongdoing by pointing out what other people did. We may be torturing people... but other countries torture MORE... so its okay that we do it.

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Again, it isn't a children's game. Pointing out their flaws is very important, and so is making comparisons, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A NO-HOLDS BARRED STRUGGLE TO KILL US AND TO DEFEAT ALL SECULARISM.

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Never once do they express outrage at the outrage we've done and demand better. Matter of fact, they ATTACK people who are outraged.

I'm sorry, but there's so much shallowness coming from the right that I get a little disgusted.

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I agree we could be more introspective at times and try to improve more. But you also have to realize that the more serrious the competition the harder you have to play ball. And not calling your opponent on egregious offenses, whilst you are bemoaning the fact that you erred relatively slightly, and he is ballyhooing the same fact that YOU DID BAD, is a recipe for public opinion disaster. What a public opinion coup for the bad guys if they can make you look bad in the eyes of the world for doing something wrong while they are doing 100 times worse. Sure takes some of the heat off them, huh? And hurts us in the world's view.

[kurto]

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Well you claimed the statement was incorrect. I asked you to show where it is incorrect and you certainly did not do that just now.


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Lets' just say your contradiction in the Pope thread about sex is surprisingly consistant with the way you debate.

Its kind of fun but at the same time, pointless. I really don't think its that hard to see what is incorrect. But spelling it out isn't enough for Bush Apologist types.

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My understanding of it is far deeper than yours I believe.

[/ QUOTE ] Your understanding is how to stretch reality in almost every thread your in and bend over backwards to ignore everything that contradicts you so that you can adhere to the party line.

Just like your sex outside of marriage is fine and not fine in the same thread. Up is down and down is down.

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It isn't just a few Muslims committing terrorism in the name of Islam; it's LOTS of them doing it, in organized fashion, and publicly proclaiming it, too.


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Its not about them being Muslim. As I've pointed out, you ignore all the politics that are behind this. Its about our dealing in the Middle East. Its not about them having Korans.

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The attacks have more to do with the messages in the Koran, and Wahhabism, than with our actions in the Middle East.

[/ QUOTE ] No it doesn't. Osama Bin Laden declared war on the US years ago and he stated the reasons. The reasons weren't about the Koran. It was because the US was in Saudia Arabia. The US has a long history of meddling in the Middle East ALL of it centered around oil.

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I'm believe I'm just more informed than you about certain things and this is one of them.


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I get the impression you're informed like a Fox news viewer is informed about world events. I'm sure you've heard the study about how well Fox viewers do in tests about world events.

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What that means is that comparison is extremely important, because if we just introspect and blame ouselves for every less-than-perfection, our opponents will NOT do the same with themselves--hell no, rather they will join and amplify the chorus of blaming us...

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Here's the part where you again excuse us from any wrongdoing. Par for the course for Bush apologists.

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I think you need more facts as Adios pointed out.

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This is the same Adios who thought that Durbin just made up a fictitious report, then had to recant when the FBI confirmed the report existed. This is the same Adios who denied people were mistreated until articles were posted showing that we beat people to death. Please, don't me laugh.

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Again, it isn't a children's game. Pointing out their flaws is very important, and so is making comparisons, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A NO-HOLDS BARRED STRUGGLE TO KILL US AND TO DEFEAT ALL SECULARISM.


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We are not discussing them. We are discussing us. And your second part is laughable. And it really has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not we are mistreating people or whether or not Durbin was right or not.

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And not calling your opponent on egregious offenses, whilst you are bemoaning the fact that you erred relatively slightly

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Once again, the subject is our conduct, not theirs. Someone elses misconduct does not excuse misconduct by us. Furthermore, most Bush apologists don't admit that we've erred or even consider it. They attack anyone who suggests such a thing. They support Bush rewriting laws about who can be held, who gets trials, they think its insignificant if we beat a few prisoners to death (even if one of them was just an innocent cab driver), etc.

[vulturesrow]

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No it doesn't. Osama Bin Laden declared war on the US years ago and he stated the reasons. The reasons weren't about the Koran. It was because the US was in Saudia Arabia. The US has a long history of meddling in the Middle East ALL of it centered around oil

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If you dont think OBL's views and activities arent intimately tied up in his interpretation of Islam then you really do need to get more facts.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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No it doesn't. Osama Bin Laden declared war on the US years ago and he stated the reasons. The reasons weren't about the Koran. It was because the US was in Saudia Arabia. The US has a long history of meddling in the Middle East ALL of it centered around oil

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If you dont think OBL's views and activities arent intimately tied up in his interpretation of Islam then you really do need to get more facts.

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You are right. He thinks that US should not be in Saudi Arabia because they have non-moslem soldiers and non-moslems are not allowed to be in the wholy land which is an interpretation of the Qu'ran.

[MMMMMM]

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No it doesn't. Osama Bin Laden declared war on the US years ago and he stated the reasons. The reasons weren't about the Koran. It was because the US was in Saudia Arabia. The US has a long history of meddling in the Middle East ALL of it centered around oil

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If you dont think OBL's views and activities arent intimately tied up in his interpretation of Islam then you really do need to get more facts.

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You are right. He thinks that US should not be in Saudi Arabia because they have non-moslem soldiers and non-moslems are not allowed to be in the wholy land which is an interpretation of the Qu'ran.

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Which is an ASININE--and completely unworkable--world view.

The closest mirror-image of that view would be for Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell to to proclaim that no non-Christians can stay in the United States because all non-Christians are defiling the "holy lands" of America.

Is that view in any way rationally supportable? Justifiable? Workable in today's world?

NO--obviously it is not. And likwise OBL's demands are completely irrational and unacceptable.

Did you know that in one of OBL's public statements, he called on the U.S. (and U.K.) to:

1) Leave the Middle East

2) Stop supporting Israel

3) Convert to Islam or face further attacks?

al-Zawahiri, #2 al-Qaeda leader, and thought to be OBL's personal doctor, recently released a public statement in which he reiterated the pan-Arab/Muslim Religio-Fascist view that all non-Muslims must leave the entire Arabian Peninsula as all that land is "holy land" and others defile it by their very presence.

Is that even REMOTELY rational? Should all non-Christians have to leave North America!!!???

The fanatical and irrational demands of OBL and his ilk stem directly and primarily from their literal interpretation of the Koran. And their demands can find no middle ground in this world. It is all or nothing with them, period.

That is the truth although it is hard for most lightly informed Westerners to believe or accept, because it seems so completely bizarre and foreign to our own way of thinking. Yet there it is and all you have to do is listen to OBL, al-Zawahiri, Abu Hamza, and many of the leading clerics and imams in the mosques--or read the Koran--in order to perceive the supremacist Islamic double-standard view of the world.

It is clear as day, if you actually educate yourself on these things, by reading the source and listening to or reading the clerics and Islamic leaders. But you have probably only lightly read Western summations or interpretations of Islam--that's not nearly the same as reading the actual texts or listening to the Islamic scholars and clerics. Not even close.

The view the most of the West has of Islam is far more liberal than the religion itself actually is--which is clearly stated by the very people who know most about Islam: the Islamic clerics and scholars, who have lived and breathed and studied that religion all of their lives.

Seriously, read what these guys have been saying. It may greatly surprise you.

[kurto]

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If you dont think OBL's views and activities arent intimately tied up in his interpretation of Islam then you really do need to get more facts.

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If the US didn't have troops in Saudia Arabia, 9/11 would have never happened. Its as simple as that.

MMMM's belief that they are attacking the US because the Koran tells them to is childishly simplistic. Of course Islam has some bearing and it is used to motive their people in the same way that Bush tells people he's doing God's will.

But that doesn't mean we're in Afghanistan and Iraq because the Bible.

Though if you followed MMMMMMs simplistic view of the world...

[MMMMMM]

Kurto, you seem a nice enough guy and genuinely concerned, but I do not think you are thinking clearly or precisely enough here. Your stating that I contradicted myself in the Pope thread (when I did not) suggests that you think in nebulous fashion rather than in a precise manner (sort of like Cyrus does;-)). If you had read that thread precisely and thought about it precisely there is no way you could think I was contradicting myself. And yes, sex is OK, but more restraint and discretion in the practice of sex would curtail the spread of AIDs. Clear enough?

Also, I agree it is partially (probably about 20%) our dealings in the Middle East that have contributed to the state of affairs, but it is primarily the deep Islamic double-standard and Koranic injunctions that fuel the fire at base. There have been many other jihads throughout history. Try looking up the term "Greater Jihadists" just for kicks; I'm curious what it would turn up;-) Our more recent dealings may be looked at as something of a catalyst; but the fuel and fire of Islamic religio-fascism has been there for around 1400 years. And the terrorists and clerics have many Koranic passages to support their views, and in fact are more corrrect in their interpretation of the Koran than Western moderates or liberal pundits.

Unfortunately I don't think we are getting anywhere much further in this discussion, Kurto. It's been a pleasure, 'til next time;-)

[ACPlayer]

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Though if you followed MMMMMMs simplistic view of the world...

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Not simplistic but ignorant.

Now you are on the right track.

[trippin bily]

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The military have investigated it. Numerous military personel have confirmed that torture has taken place. (and at other sites, they have already confirmed that prisoner were beaten to death

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Kurto I'm calling you a liar on this one.
Prove that "milatary personnel have confirmed that prisoners were beeaten to death".
You are a liar.
It would seem to me you get most of your news from Al Jazera.
I'm sure OBL is very proud of you.