Annoyed with AK, so trying not to spew more bets than necessary.

[Chris Dow]

Ty, this post demonstrates sound thinking and can generate meaningful discussion. It doesn't address the third player in the pot, if the opinion behind a call is that we don't have to care about him, then I suppose I would be hard pressed to argue further if people in the call camp want to argue from these grounds. 1) can't fold because too many outs 2) raising has no benefit/effect aside from putting more money in.

[GetThere1Time]

Maybe I'm insane but I would fold the flop for one bet here.

Yes it's a large pot and I might have 6 outs and I might have 4 outs and I might have the best hand, but...

1. The LRR-er bet into the PF capper.
2. 6 or 4 outs is optimistic. You might not have that many at all.
3. Even when you hit an "out", any hand holding a club has a redraw.

Does this fall into the category of reverse implied odds???

The example they show in TOP is when you hold A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Pointing out the discrepencies between call and raise is pointless. The people who choose raise will tend to do so to protect the potential of 6 outs, whereas the people who call will allow themselves to make potentially bad decisions on 2 of the 6 outs.

If you want to mock my hand ranges why not give your own. Instead you just what, take down the quick points I threw together which all have some weight and follow them with question marks? Thanks, but I don't see your range of hands that you're even thinking about for opponents and the analysis of why call would be correct against this range.

Do I need to simplify further? A raise line is more likely to reach showdown in the cases when I am in fact drawing live to any outs. A call line is unlikely to ever make the showdown and when it does it will just win and lose the minimum from the flop.

You guys act like my opponents can see my hand and don't know that after capping I don't have the Ac/Ax and can't have it. You're just staring at the two hole cards and the board and thinking on the most basic level possible, it's pretty weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're getting emotionally invested in this discussion. I was not mocking any hand ranges you provided -- I was pointing out that you were comparing two potential decisions from the same point of time, but were applying different underlying factual circumstances to those potential decisions (i.e., if you have 4 semi-clean outs when calling then you must also have 4 semi-clean outs when raising). If you want to compare the respective decisions, you need to compare them against the same backdrop. That was my primary point to your raise / call / fold analysis.

My secondary point was made much more articulately by Colgin. Whether ahead or behind, I see almost no justification for raising, while you clearly do see adequate justification. My opinion is that, even given a raise, you have basically no fold equity against the flop bettor, you might have a bit of fold equity against Button (but I don't think you can have more than the tiniest smidgen), and you are not giving either one incorrect odds to call 2 instead of calling 1 if their hands are worth calling 1.

As far as I can tell from the original post I replied to and the post I am now responding to, your reasons for raising (versus calling) are: (1) "fc/control/don't get bluffed out purposes;" (2) the raise puts some pressure on the player behind and you can't imagine a hand that you'd not want to fold from him; (3) Button calling a raise would allow you to narrow down his hand range; (4) raising protects the potential 6 outs; and (5) a raise line is more likely to reach showdown than a call line.

My opinion is that the only of the 5 factors you cite that seem at all plausible to me, and only then a tiny little bit, is number 2. But that I think Button is either folding / calling / raising depending on his hand strength against this board regardless of whether you raise or call in a pot this size. I believe he either has a hand worth continuing in which case he calls (or raises) whether you raise or not; or he has a hand that is not worth continuing in which case he folds whether you raise or not.