Controversy and Interesting Floor Decision at WPT Champ...

[Lottery Larry]

Ah, I missed that reference completely. I feel stupid, thanks.

At least I deduced the motivation for the deck change... I agree, that kind of angle shooting should be blocked.

Is that an important or frequent enough event that the protection should be built into it so strongly?

[Daliman]

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I'm confused- I don't understand what AA has to do with changing the outcome of the hand. with the board showing a 6-high straight

I also don't understand this at all
" other than the obvious, is so that someone can't just jack up the hand hoping everyone will just fold and then expect when they get called on the end that the hand will be declared dead. "

Are you saying that the angle shot would be to raise, get some people to muck their cards while declaring "I'm playing the board" (which is a bit ambiguous, since people say that when they miss their hands and know they are beaten), and then declare their hand dead because it was mucked, even though the board is the winner?
Isn't this why you SHOULD require people to hold onto their cards, so you don't get the reverse angle shot by people who are folding because they think they're beaten by a 7 and then try to change history?

"A guy told me this happened to him once, where he had sutited Aces, jacked it up, won on the river w/o a showdown, then mucked and asked for a deck change. Maybe BS, but it was the first I'd heard of it. "

I'm not sure what he did wrong here, but is he asking for a deck change to cover up something he did? I didn't understand this reference at all.

Sorry to be so dense .

Can you point us to the thread you're talking about, or do we have to search and hope we can get lucky and find it?

Thanks
LL

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The AsAs hand was only to illustrate the point of why you need to show your cards at the end of a hand if there is any kind of showdown. Obviously, I'm not much of an illustrator.

[mostsmooth]

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Poker is a 5-card game, not a 7-card game. The floor made the correct decision imho

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While I agree completely with this decision, I;m curious as to how does it get around the "you must have two cards two show" rule? I thought that was in place to prevents cheating, collusion, and angle shots. What if Schein had AsAs?

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what if somebody betsthe river with AsAs and nobody calls? is it ok for them to muck without showing?

[Sponger15SB]

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A guy told me this happened to him once, where he had sutited Aces, jacked it up, won on the river w/o a showdown, then mucked and asked for a deck change. Maybe BS, but it was the first I'd heard of it.

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Wow, what an idiot. If he had to turn his hand over at the showdown he would have lost the whole pot. Better to just flip your suited aces up preflop instead of screwing yourself. He was better off "jacking it up" with 72o

[Daliman]

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Poker is a 5-card game, not a 7-card game. The floor made the correct decision imho

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While I agree completely with this decision, I;m curious as to how does it get around the "you must have two cards two show" rule? I thought that was in place to prevents cheating, collusion, and angle shots. What if Schein had AsAs?

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what if somebody betsthe river with AsAs and nobody calls? is it ok for them to muck without showing?

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Of course, as there is no showdown.

[Daliman]

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A guy told me this happened to him once, where he had sutited Aces, jacked it up, won on the river w/o a showdown, then mucked and asked for a deck change. Maybe BS, but it was the first I'd heard of it.

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Wow, what an idiot. If he had to turn his hand over at the showdown he would have lost the whole pot. Better to just flip your suited aces up preflop instead of screwing yourself. He was better off "jacking it up" with 72o

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Well, I didn;t understand this at the time, and niether did he, I guess, as he made it sound like the whole hand would be considered dead and all would get their $$$ back, especially if he played stupid.

I wonder if you could get away with this if you played it like normal aces, not obviously jacking it up more than usual, but playing it strong like you would play aces. You could easily say you thought you had AsAc, but I doubt it would matter. It would probably go under the heading of "you are responsible for your two cards".

As an aside to all this, what about the players who often say, "I just looked at one card" in NL. Let's say they did, and went allin, and it turned out they had two of the same card? Is their hand dead? I'd think so.

[wray]

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Wow, what a terrible decision. By that logic, next time I fold preflop, I should be able to play the board if a straight shows and take a part of the pot.

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WTF are you talking about? You are making absolutely zero sense with this comment.

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I agree..... I mean were they pissed that they didn't get to see his cards?

[Benman]

What about this example. Think it through carefully, and if you still think the floor's decision was correct how do you distinguish the two situations.

Final board: A A A A 2

1st player turns up 22

2nd player says "I win!", but mucks his hand without showing. Is the 2nd player entitled to the pot?

[Daliman]

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What about this example. Think it through carefully, and if you still think the floor's decision was correct how do you distinguish the two situations.

Final board: A A A A 2

1st player turns up 22

2nd player says "I win!", but mucks his hand without showing. Is the 2nd player entitled to the pot?

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Very interesting, and of course, he would HAVE to have the best hand. This again illustrates somewhat why hands must be shown though. I guess the infetisimle chance that he has 22 himself has to be shown not to be whe case.

However, as he is not playing the board, I'm positive he'd lose the hand.

[wayabvpar]

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What about this example. Think it through carefully, and if you still think the floor's decision was correct how do you distinguish the two situations.

Final board: A A A A 2

1st player turns up 22

2nd player says "I win!", but mucks his hand without showing. Is the 2nd player entitled to the pot?

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Very interesting, and of course, he would HAVE to have the best hand. This again illustrates somewhat why hands must be shown though. I guess the infetisimle chance that he has 22 himself has to be shown not to be whe case.

However, as he is not playing the board, I'm positive he'd lose the hand.

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the infetisimle chance that he has 22 himself

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How many ducks are in the decks you play with? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]