Different styles for BB defens

[naphand]

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Thats why its called stealing.

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Stealing with trash is worthy of a separate discussion on its own, I take your point but it is not really what this thread is about. We are talking about a hand that PFR will auto-bet on the flop, but which still has a reasonable chance to draw out on defender.

There are enough value-raising hands which can be played 1st-in OTB to not require stealing with trash at all. With a correct "steal" rate (and I agree that "stealing" is not really stealing at all, it is usually "value-raising") you could be raising up to 40-50% of your hands PF, some limitations apply (such as how to play post-flop for value, and some trouble/disguise hands).

Charging a weak stealer playing trash only works if he calls your CR, if he is stealing with garbage why does he call your flop CR? This needs a read to be +EV, otherwise calling and letting him bet again on the Turn might be better?

The issue here is where to get the most value and do we want opponent to fold asap? CR the flop is straightforward due to the auto-bet play made by PFR, which can be taken advantage of. I think we agree that in most cases they will call the flop CR (but perhaps not with total trash). The next question is, will they call a Turn CR? or will they fold? Will they call a Turn bet after a flop CR? I think they probably DO call the Turn bet more easily but against a player who folds the Turn bet (correctly, in this example), we are better calling the flop bet, and calling/CR the Turn bet if PFR is the sort of player to go bet-bet-fold/call. Allowing PFR to get to the River gives him approx. 25% chance to draw out on us (in this example). Do we want him to fold the Turn? Is our flop CR getting more money in than call-CR? By CR the Turn we get an extra 0.5 BB from a player who calls the flop CR but folds the Turn for a single bet, plus we get an extra 0.5 BB from a player who wants to see the River and calls the Turn CR.

Balanced against this we have to consider the possibility of scare cards falling on the Turn which make a Turn CR more difficult. But even on a math-level we could just go ahead and CR the Turn with most cards, knowing opponent only hits 13% of the time (we may need to revise that %age based on what card falls, of course). The line that we CR our weaker hands on the flop applies when either (i) we can get opponent to fold a hand with a decent chance to draw out on us that we will have to pay off, or (ii) many scare cards can fall on the Turn which make a Turn CR potentially very costly or difficult. That said we are looing at a very low (approx. 13%) chance for opponent to hit on the Turn, so we will get paid off much more often than charged when drawn out on, providing we believe opponent either calls the Turn CR or uses the bet-bet line.

[helpmeout]

He doesnt call your checkraise, you gain the bet from when he bets the flop following up from his PFR. If you bet out you dont gain this bet from him because he folds.

If you have a weak holding then it is better to get him to fold on the flop rather than have him do some funky turn moves on you when any overcard hits that may or may not improve his hand.

When you have a high pair such as a pair of Js Qs Ks or As then you want him to pay on the turn so checkraising is not the play.

When you have a weak pair then it is better to define your hand on the flop so he folds his 2 cards which may be correct in drawing against you. Most times he will not know whether he has 2 overcards though because you checkraise a pair of 4s on a board of Q74, he may have 96 but he cant call it.

Going for the turn checkraise is usually a weak play against all but the most aggressive players. Most players will generally check through the turn if the have nothing and there is a caller.

You are essentially giving him 2 freecards to beat you because his auto flop bet is a steal if you check to him on the turn he will take the freecard.

With a weak holding you cant be giving potentially 2 freecards to someone and expect to hold up most of the time.

The turn checkraise is also a powerful move but if he calls it then do you give up the pot on the river or do you bet again? Its too much to risk on a weak hand IMO.

[naphand]

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With a weak holding you cant be giving potentially 2 freecards to someone and expect to hold up most of the time.

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That is exactly what you can expect. The equity of a flopped pair -vs- two overs is better than 75:25 taking both cards to come into account. It will hold up MOST of the time, by definition.

Obviously you do not want to be giving free cards, which is why this is very reliant on your read of opponent. It is no use saying "most opponents" will check this through so the play is bad, that is just standardising the play. The point should be, where you have an aggressive player who will bet both streets, you can consider the Turn CR. You are 86:13 to still be ahead on the Turn.

And as for "most opponents" I think there are quite a few threads which talk about stealing PF and playing bet-bet-check to prevent opponent (defender) getting any free cards to draw out on you by catching a pair. If this is the standard line I am not quite sure how it is that most PFRs are also playing bet-check? Clearly all lines are read dependent and this one requires opponent to be aggressive enough to play bet-bet-check (or even bet-bet-bet). It is certainly correct to discuss alternatives with a view to their application given specific reads. Playing the same line against everyone is not max EV, I am sure you agree.

[djoyce003]

My line is to checkraise the flop, and lead the turn. I find that this gets more folds than a turn checkraise.

[sqvirrel]

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My line is to checkraise the flop, and lead the turn. I find that this gets more folds than a turn checkraise.

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That is a common line but nap argues (correctly, I think) that since you are ahead you don't want a fold. The object is to win the most money, not the most pots.