Question for Catholics

[Cyrus]

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I am not saying the [Christian] Church has never done wrong or that the people in the Church have never done wrong. No one has or ever will assert such foolishness. The fact of these sins doesnt call the Church as an institution into doubt.

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I'm afraid the fault lies not with the execution of the theory but with the theory itself.

There was a time when, among leftist circles, the crimes of Stalinism were not ascribed to Communism itself but to the erroneous ("grossly erroneous") application of Communist theory by Joseph Stalin. In fact, this was the position of Trotsky and other Communist dissidents (or deviationists -- choose your term). This excuse persisted for decades after WWII and came to be finally refuted only through the works of French philosophers and sociologists, starting in the 1950s. They showed that the fault (the seeds of barbarism) lie at the very heart of Marxism-Leninism. (Those guys were not capitalists. One of the main theoretical publications at the time was "Socialism or Barbarism?" The latter referred both to capitalism and Stalinism.)

Same thing with monotheistic religions and, in this case, Christianity. While no one can seriously dispute the enormous humanitarian work of the Church, or the importance of some political and social positions that the Church has supported, it remains an inhibitive factor in Man's progress towards greater knowledge, greater individual freedom, better social organisation, etc. Despite its many appearances (and disguises) as the solution, it's the religion itself that is the problem.

By the way, the structural similarities between a major monotheistic religion and Communism, if one ignores the content of the respective "teachings", are so many as to render the two belief systems nearly identical.

[vulturesrow]

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Man's progress towards greater knowledge

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Werent members of the Church responsible for keeping much knowledge alive during the Feudal Ages? Do you know of the Pope John Paul II's support for the sciences? The [Catholic] Church has always been a home of reason in spite of some missteps.

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greater individual freedom

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Surely you jest. Again I refer you to Pope John Paul II who spoke and wrote eloquently about the dignity of man and the importance of freedom, who not only spoke against Communism but also the excesses of capitalism! (which btw should do your heart well to know that these writings by John Paul II have moderated my feelings about unadulterated capitalism [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )


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better social organisation

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Im just a dumb neo-con so Ill be honest and admit Im not sure what you are getting at here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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By the way, the structural similarities between a major monotheistic religion and Communism, if one ignores the content of the respective "teachings", are so many as to render the two belief systems nearly identical.

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Im not sure what structural similarities you are referring to but to divorce the Church from its teachings is artificial and sets up a disingenuous comparison. Still I guess I find that comparison somewhat less offensive then Church=Nazism.

I know its fairly obvious, but I think the Church is +EV for the world. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Dead]

Anyone who compares the Catholic church to a bunch of Nazis has NFC about the Catholic church, and as such, should not be commenting in this thread. The stance of the Catholic church against the Nazis was well documented. I could argue that the Catholic church did not do enough to try and stop the Nazis, but there can be no doubt that there is a huge difference between the Catholic church and Nazism.

[Cyrus]

I will respond only to the comments that my comparison between the (Christian) Church and Communism inevitably drew. The rest of my post's content is self-explanatory about my positions on the matter of Christianity as organised ideology so I see nothing that needs to be added.

Both Dead and Vultures got it wrong, Vultures less so. (Dead even saw "Nazis" where I wrote Communists, but that's alright!)

I specifically asked that a structural comparison be made. (Yes, that means irrespective of the content of the teachings! You should know why.) And a structural comparison between the two constructs, the monotheistic religion of Christianity and the political ideology of Marxism-Leninism will trivially produce striking similarities. The conclusions one can draw from these similarities should not be dismissed. Most people do not even consider them, let alone examine them.

It is my position that the fault lies in the structure. Not in the teachings (the "content") as such. (And I am not a structuralist, John, in case you are watching.)

[vulturesrow]

Cyrus,

Point of order. I think Dead may have been referring to Bernie's posts comparing the Nazis to the Church.

I understand your assertion, I am just asking two questions about it.

1. What are the structural similarities that you are referring to?
2. Dont you think it is a bit artificial to separate the teachings of the Church away from it for the purposes of comparison? If not, why?

[Dead]

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(Dead even saw "Nazis" where I wrote Communists, but that's alright!)

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As VR said, I was referring to Bernie's posts comparing the Catholic church to a bunch of Nazis. I found that offensive.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Cyrus, I don't see how the structural similarities between the Catholic Chuch and Communism has any real point. Most organizations are formed in the same mold as well. Or where you trying to imply something else from your post? that because communism is bad that the Church must be bad because they have similar structural characteristics?

[bernie]

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Why are you in the thread if you aren't Catholic?

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I was a catholic for the first 12 years of my life. Forced to attend a parochial school for 8 years.

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And don't use the phrase "Jewish card" ever again.

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Then don't play it.

b

[bernie]

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I could easily post a point by point answer to your bs

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Doubt it. Anyone who just shrugs off the churches vile past as 'simple misunderstandings' doesn't hold much credit with me either.

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but its clear to me that no useful dialogue can be hand when you are so blinded by your hate of the Church and Christianity in general.


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We will agree to disagree. We are not converting eachother. It's not that I don't mind christianity, even though I don't believe in it, that's not my problem with it. It's organized religion in general that I don't like. History has proven many times why it sucks. In time it will prove it again.

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Im not sure what the genesis of your virulent anti-Catholicism/Christianity is

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A good study of their past history sealed that for me. I wouldn't voluntarily support any institution with that track record. How can one 'simply' overlook it?

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The fact of these sins doesnt call the Church as an institution into doubt.

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Really? It should make you doubt the vatican. Especially on their motives. I've already mentioned you can be catholic without supporting the vatican. Who else do you support that has their track record? Who's blinded?

Again, it's amazing what people let them get away with that they wouldn't tolerate from any other institution. Religious genocide aside, of course.

[bernie]

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posts comparing the Catholic church to a bunch of Nazis. I found that offensive.

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You see a difference in killing people for their race as different from killing people for thinking/believing differently?

It should be equally offensive.

b