easy does it

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're way off base here. First, (chronoligcally, not in terms of importance), you for some reason think that being raised on a bluff would be a bad thing. I'd welcome it with my JJ, 'cause I ain't folding them to a single raise. Second and third (the two are related), you for some other unexplained reason seem to think that a raise would drop L2 and that Tommy's JJ is "very hard to draw out on." If L2 is on a decent flush draw then he's got at least one overcard to Tommy's JJ, which gives him ELEVEN outs. If L1 has a T and an overcard to Tommy's JJ, then that's another five outs. Make no mistake, Tommy's hand is very vulnerable.

Overall, I don't think the hand is as bad as some of the other stuff Tommy's posted lately, but I think that Tommy's reads were right: L1 had a T and L2 had a draw -- neither of which is at all likely to fold to a raise with this reasonably big pot -- and in that situation raising either the flop or the turn is the far better play.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're way off base here. First, (chronoligcally, not in terms of importance), you for some reason think that being raised on a bluff would be a bad thing. I'd welcome it with my JJ, 'cause I ain't folding them to a single raise. Second and third (the two are related), you for some other unexplained reason seem to think that a raise would drop L2 and that Tommy's JJ is "very hard to draw out on." If L2 is on a decent flush draw then he's got at least one overcard to Tommy's JJ, which gives him ELEVEN outs. If L1 has a T and an overcard to Tommy's JJ, then that's another five outs. Make no mistake, Tommy's hand is very vulnerable.

Overall, I don't think the hand is as bad as some of the other stuff Tommy's posted lately, but I think that Tommy's reads were right: L1 had a T and L2 had a draw -- neither of which is at all likely to fold to a raise with this reasonably big pot -- and in that situation raising either the flop or the turn is the far better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree with the reply... if your are confident in your reads after the flop you must put in a raise on the turn... otherwise stop trying to put people on a hand... if you're not going to use your ability to make more money...

The only question I see is where do you put in a raise...

Do you do it on the flop to thin the field and let your opponents define their hand... that is certainly what the L3 wanted to happen... my thought on the flop is interesting... i think the call is ok here b/c... you are not likely to get any reasonable draw to fold and definitely not an 8... so why not call... IMO call here lets opponents define hand a little better as it turns out... when everyone folded except for L2.... then the hands are reasonably defined and you must put raise in on the turn... otherwise you are just playing passively... and weak...

Overall... it depends on what you want to do... but a raise on one of the streets is imperative... and personally I would put it in on the turn...

[Trix]

Wouldn´t you want to protect your hand from the other two when L3 puts in bet number 10 ?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Three players limped (L1, L2, L3). I was on the button with JJ. I raised, the blinds folded, and the limpers called. The pot was four-handed with me last.

The flop was 10-8-8 twotone. L1 checked, L2 checked, and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten, an eight, or a draw. I called, L1 folded, and L2 called. Three players.

The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

The river was a queen. L2 checked, so I put him on a miss. L3 checked, so I put him on a ten. I bet, L2 folded, and L3 called.



[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'll make this simple. I'd raise the flop for obvious reasons, but since you choose to pretty much always wait til the turn to see where you're at, I'll just accept it and move on.

On the turn, you put the first guy on a draw, and the second guy on a ten or an eight. So, this one is easy. You raise. You can let the first guy call with his J9 or QJ or 97 or 67 if he wants, or fold it if he wants. If he calls, all the better. The next guy isn't going to three-bet you without an eight. You know it, I know it. So just sneak a raise in there. You will make two more bets when you are ahead and lose the same when you are behind. Will you explain why there is any good reason to not raise the turn, besides laziness? I don't buy the "I don't want to open myself up to a bluff" line, because you are better than someone who would irrationally fear something like that.
-James

[hockey1]

bingo

[mike l.]

nice hand R1.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm seeing alot of replies that go along the lines of "if you put L2 on a draw you should have raised the turn" If you look more carefully at the post you'll notice he didnt put him (L2) on a draw until after he (tommy) had already acted. So, the fact he puts him on a draw shouldn't really factor into the decision to raise or call the turn.

This is not the way I would play the hand, but I certainly see good reasons for playing it the way he did. Just my 2 cents.

[Lawrence Ng]

I like it.

Maximum extrapolated, minimum lossed.

Lawrence

[Softrock]

Reading this post and the responses really got me thinking - good job, Tommy. My first reaction was similar to TSP and others - how could you not put in a raise on the flop and/or the turn? However, whenever I see someone who is a successful poker player or who strikes me as thinking at a deeper level than perhaps I'm capable I always try to stop and think "Maybe he/she knows something I don't?" I think most of us mid-range players (yeah I'd like to think I'm above that but as Buddha would say "If you think you're there, you're not"). This is the sort of hand that may mark the difference between us journeymen and our superiors. Many of us are stuck with the "protect your hand" or "make 'em pay to draw" thought process. We should be thinking beyond this - ie. in this situation, what is going to produce the maximum yield long-term. This latter involves considering what you lose if behind, the reality of being able to "protect your hand" etc. Let me try to think at a deeper level here.

There are three likely occurrence as this hand unfolds. They are:

A) Tommy's already behind and drawing to a two-outer at best

B) Tommy's ahead and will remain ahead as the turn and river arrive

C) Tommy's ahead but the turn or river will beat him

If this is situation A, playing aggressively costs more money unless you can actually fold this overpair if you get heavy action. How many of you could actually do this? If you raise the turn and get re-raised would you consider a semi-bluff from J9 maybe suited? I think most of us cost ourselves money and probably cannot muck this hand if we play aggressively and get re-action.

Situation B - If you're ahead do you make more money just calling along or do you simply push out inferior hands that are drawing thinly by playing more aggressively? Maybe this question itself is a close call but now put this is peerspective with the possibility of situation A. Does any slight gain here by playing aggressively offset the loss of playing aggressively if you are actually behind? I doubt it.

Situation C: In many games, no matter what you do you are going to be called to the river by top pair or a legitimate draw. I agree with TSP that it hurts if you let AK get there on the river - is such a hand likely and would such a hand call the turn? Probably not. Is KT calling to the river regardless of what you do? Probably in most games.

My point that I may not have demonstrated as artfully as I'd like is that on further thought I think Tommy's play is the better one here and one that I probably don't make.

I'm also reminded how much I love playing with those who think they've arrived as poker players and are not capable of recognizing what they don't know or at least considering that their approach and thought process may have flaws. I recall one of my favorite passages from the novel "Catch-22". Yossarian and the guys keep teasing Haversham that he has flies in his eyes. Haversham goes into the bathroom and looks in the mirror and says he's checked and he does NOT have flies in his eyes. Yoasarian's reply is something to the effect of "You can't see that you have flies in your eyes because you have flies in yor eyes". Rather apropos of poker don't you think?

Thanks Tommy.

[Peter_rus]

There is no way i can play this hand in this manner. I would raise flop. There is 10SB in a pot and i hate KQ to call down 1 SB as well as gutshots like Q9. I prefer to fold on turn if 3-betted on flop to L3 and i would have strong read that T cannot play this way. And even more i prefer to take down pot right now on flop if im allowed.