Which play is worse?

[Tommy Angelo]

You got it partly right. $15/hour is my minumum expected earn. Typical is $100/hour.

[Gabe]

In a full game, calling on the button is worse than calling in the BB. However, in a four handed game, calling in the BB is worse than calling on the button.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh my. We appear to be from different planets! The thing I had mistakenly assumed was that we meant the same thing when we used the word "position!"

The way I define the word "position" in my mind, the button always has better position than the blinds. I'm not saying my definition is better or worse than yours. But it is sufficiently different to meltdown this conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not arguing that the button doesn't always have better position that the blinds, just that 10-handed in limit, it's not as big as in normal situations, like 2-5 people seeing the flop.

Also, one of the big advantages to the button is preflop. If you were UTG and were able to have everyone act before you preflop but would act as you would normally postflop, the difference between UTG and the button would be fairly small. Add to this that a lot of the earn of the button comes from open-raising to steal the blinds (where position IS more important than the cards), and I think it should be clear that the button in a situation like the 94o hand is worth very little.

[MMMMMM]

Your post raised more than one question. Don't you know to which one I am responding?

If your personal results for a given hand at full table $20-40 are actually $300 different for the big blind position compared to the button position, then something very strange is going on...strange as in alternate universe kind of strange, IMO. That's why I say either your estimate is way off or you must play the blinds atrociously. Since I find it hard to believe that you play the blind that atrociously (or the button that brilliantly), it is most likely that your subjective perception of results is way off somehow.

[mike l.]

yeah calling in the bb is worse. and if youre going to play it on the button, then raising is the play.

[MMMMMM]

You and Tommy are overvaluing position by absolutely incredible amounts. Especially in this case with nine opponents and a junk holding. Basically you are not going to win this hand by outplaying your opponents; you will have to get very lucky to win.

And by the way, raising this hand in this spot on the button is worse than calling.

[skp]

Raise with 94 off against a gaggle of players?

LOL

[skp]

I agree.

In either case, we are required to put in a bet to see the flop. In the button scenario, we are getting 9:1. In the bb scenario, we are getting 19:1. It is true that in the bb scenario, you are more likely to be up against a made hand preflop but who really cares given that you are probably going to have to make 2 pairs or better to win this hand.

If you flop one pair or a draw, whether you are on the button or in the bb is going to make little difference (perhaps the button is slightly better if it turns out that the flop bet comes from your immediate right). If you flop two pairs or trips or a boat, you are slightly better off in the bb than on the button given that in the bb scenario, the bet is likely to come from your immediate left allowing you to checkraise the whole field. In the button scenario, you could flop trips and the bet might come from your immediate right (you would still raise because of the pot size but that's not as sweet as checkraising the field).

And I agree generally with your comment on the diminished importance of having the button when you have a junk hand against a large field. If you had a hand like T9s or something that has the potential of flopping a very strong draw, having the button is way more useful (but even then being in the bb ain't bad where the PFR is to your immediate left).

19:1 vs. 9:1: Case closed as far as I am concerned.

[mike l.]

"And by the way, raising this hand in this spot on the button is worse than calling."

not against the people i play against.

anyway it's a big loser either way, but id prefer to be sitting there with the button if i had to play it, despite the double size pot in the bb scenario.

[mike l.]

"the bet is likely to come from your immediate left allowing you to checkraise the whole field."

which of course you probably wont want to do because you dont want to tie people in, you want to shut them out when the pot is that big and pretty much any flopped hand other than a boat will be unpleasantly vulnerable to being drawn out on. so the play will more often than not be to bet into the preflop raiser and hope he raises and shuts people out and that wont happen because duh there's 19 sbs in the pot. and youll want to bet into him even if you flop just one pair because you want to clean up outs. but his raise wont work. so you have to wait until the turn. cause the pot's big man and you become a slave to that, mason said so. so you dump all sorts of bets.

think through it a little more, i think the -EV is closer than it appears at first.