60-120 hand Th3h

[Gabe]

I seem to recall him implying that you were a nit.

[mike l.]

"maybe I gave too much credit to your 60/120 opponents"

that's the main problem.

"If I'm only a little behind and I catch my kicker on the turn, I'm vulnerable to river redraws'

talk about weak tight paranoia! you sound like pre-sklansky lessons jim brier!

"The backdoor flush draw has significant value, but not enough to make up for the above....The backdoor one card bottom end straight draw has little value against this large field."

but these plus top pair plus position plus the size of the pot make a fold on the flop horrible.

"When you said "excellent game" I figured "excellent game by 60/120 standards". It sounds like your 60/120 is a better game than the 15/30 and 20/40's I play"

you said it rick, not me.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Earlier tonight I ran the hand past Hero who said call the flop without hesitation. Best friend G (15/30 to 40/80 long time winner, mostly plays days so I'm not sure you know him, definitely not a nitty style) said fold but it is close.

I'm really wondering if I am losing my limit game playing no limit (or whether I ever "had game" in the fist place!). Maybe in a few days I'll repost it (same info, change the style maybe) for the flop play. Might be a good hand for a poll.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
talk about weak tight paranoia! you sound like pre-Sklansky lessons jim brier!

[/ QUOTE ]

Did Jim Brier take lessons from Sklansky before or after he wrote his book with Ciaffone?

Anyway, from my response to Gabe below you can see I'm really wondering about my game or lack thereof.

That said, given the fact these opponents look like they belong in 4/8 (except they have more money than sense), I still don't like the call. The moderate overlay you gain by picking up the flush draw on the turn and making the very correct aggro play (where others wouldn't) still doesn't make up for what I believe is a very loose overcall on the flop. Of course you get away from the hand if it comes bad on the turn, weak players won't.

If I repost this with a poll I might put it up on a couple of forums. The 26 sub-forum 4000 plus posts per day 2+2 site is so active now that a lot of the expertise is really spread out.

OTOH, maybe I'm having a poker mid-life crisis.

~ Rick

PS I wonder what Tommy would think.

[lil feller]

I haven't read the results of the hand yet, and given that I spend most of my time in a B&M 20/40 game I'm not even sure that I'm qualified to offer my opinion, however...

I like your line on the hand all the way through...until the river. The flop call is easy IMHO, you may very well be infront, and if your not you probably have live outs, with all that money out there, not seeing the flop for one bet would be crazy. Raising also doesn't serve any sort of a purpose as nobody is going to fold, which is the only reason I can think of to raise here.

The turn is perfect, again IMHO, over representing your hand on the big bet street even if you think you need improvement gives you an excellent chance too...

Make a follow through bet on the river. I might be crazy but I don't think you can afford not to bet teh river here. Don't get me wrong, it certainly isn't a bet for value, and you really don't want to be called, but if you aren't going to follow through on the river with the over representation of your hand, what was your turn raise supposed to accomplish? Did you think you could win the pot outright on the turn, given the lineup I'm sure that never entered your mind. Your turn raise and then river bet might get a Qx of hearts to fold (though I can't imagine anybody seeing the turn with that), or more likely you might get a better T to fold, thinking that they were the ones on a draw. You only need this bet to work one time in 12 (if I counted right) for it to show a nice profit. I think a rive bet here is a must. just one poor players opinion

lil feller

[Tommy Angelo]

Hi mike you are pathetic as usual and I think you played this hand wrong on every street.

Okay, not really. How the hell should I know? I wasn't even there.

But let's say just for fun that I had to make a case from way up here that you botched this hand on all six streets down there. Here goes.

Pre-preflop: Go walk around and have another milkshake or whatever you do and enter the game on the big blind. Wow you play bad.

Preflop [after you post and several players limp]: RAISE! I mean c'mon mike, why the hell not? Think about what that one little bet buys you, in the hand, in the session, in the life.

Flop: Just shut up and raise with top pair. If you can't think of any portion of the litany of the reasons why, then ask the guy in the small blind who might like to make it three bets and blow them out and let you sit behind him heads up on the big streets with a ton of dead money in the pot and top pair. Don't talk to me about this. Just shut up and raise you moron.

Turn: You mauled this hand so bad already I can't help you from here. Except for maybe one thing.

THE RIVER: mike l you truly and totally suck. It's okay to not bet this river, I suppose, if the lady who hit the queen flashed you her hand, or if you had some nearly equally reliable tell from one of the players along the way that you were beat. But without that, you have to bet so that it can play out as follows, on this river, and all rivers that remotely resemble it.

You bet. The first player folds. The last player, who so far was very busy trying to conjure a helpful card out of the deck, is now left suddenly with an unforeseen wagering possibility. He can fold and watch you take the pot, cards unseen, or he can call with his pocket pair or small board-match pair without thinking, as he usually does when he is last to call in a big pot, or, he can think for a moment, and do what he usually does after he thinks, which is he talks himself into calling with ace-high.

Tell me mike, how often do you earn that final bet by betting, compared to how often you save a bet here by checking? That’s why I love the final river decision so. Nothing before it or after it matters to it.

She had the queen this time. If you had a feeling that she hit that card, and that's why you checked, then I take back everything and in that case you played the hand perfectly because you made the right play for the right reason at the key moment in the hand as it turns out. But if you had no indication from her or the other guy as to what they had, except for their betting, then you’re back to sucking.

Posthand: You probably played that street pretty good I imagine, it being your first hand and all, but then, like I said, I wasn't there.


luvvies,


Tommy

[elysium]

hi rick

actually rick, the call is fine. he runs a risk of facing 2 cold, but more likely, he is risking only having to call a raise. if the opponents on mike's left indicated something that mike didn't like, i'd like to think he would have folded. i assume that wasn't the case.

raising, IMO, would be wrong, however. mike doesn't want to spook the UTG on his right out of betting since he needs to driveout on the turn.

by the way, without the backdoor, he doesn't have call on the flop since he isn't sure that his call will effectively close. with the backdoor, he needs to only have reasonable grounds for believing that he won't be raised. interestingly, i have heard everything about the value of a single runner, runner from having the value of 1 or 2 outs, or having no value whatsoever. actually, while i tend to rate it as 1 additional out, depending on how well you balance the hand strategically, and how inept your opposition is under fire, the little runner, runner out does well for itself. you might say, under the right conditions, that it is a single lively out, FWIW.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
hi rick

actually rick, the call is fine. he runs a risk of facing 2 cold, but more likely, he is risking only having to call a raise. if the opponents on mike's left indicated something that mike didn't like, i'd like to think he would have folded. i assume that wasn't the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

If mike l. calls then the button raises (I do assume mike l. would take advantage of any reaching tells) and an original bettor or caller makes it three bets, if mike l. doesn't fold facing two more bets now then I'm quitting poker!

[ QUOTE ]
raising, IMO, would be wrong, however. mike doesn't want to spook the UTG on his right out of betting since he needs to driveout on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

My flop play was fold, fold, fold NOT raise instead of call! However, now that you and Tommy are considering the raise the flop option, I'll fit it in my poll [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
by the way, without the backdoor, he doesn't have call on the flop since he isn't sure that his call will effectively close. with the backdoor, he needs to only have reasonable grounds for believing that he won't be raised. interestingly, i have heard everything about the value of a single runner, runner from having the value of 1 or 2 outs, or having no value whatsoever. actually, while i tend to rate it as 1 additional out, depending on how well you balance the hand strategically, and how inept your opposition is under fire, the little runner, runner out does well for itself. you might say, under the right conditions, that it is a single lively out, FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

If memory serves an ancient Sklansky column/essay (where he did the math) a pure medium high backdoor flush draw (with nothing else going) requires about 27 to 1 when you close the action or are relatively sure you won't be raised. That's close enough to one out when other things are going. But very little else is going this hand, surely not enough to equate to the two or three extra outs necessary to take one off getting only 11 to 1. I don't see favorable implied odds here either, action on the backdoor one card bottom end straight will rarely be favorable, and making two weak pair isn't a implied odds situation.

~ rick

[mike l.]

"However, now that you and Tommy are considering the raise the flop option, I'll fit it in my poll"

why bother with a poll? you have the best mid limit posters on here advising a flop call. if you do a poll you just end up getting every newbie/mediocre/break even party 5-10 half wit and his brother chiming in with what they think is right. so it's not going to teach you anything really except how weaker players would play it (and they would call too, but not for the same reasons).

"if memory serves an ancient Sklansky column/essay "

it's in poker gaming and life.

the person to ask about this rick, is coilean. he will have the absolute CORRECT answer. and it will be call. but he will show you some dazzling math and he will factor in every single possible thing to factor in. plus he knows the extent of the commerce top section looseness factor. pm him rick and you will get what youre looking for: a reason to believe.

btw, the only person i think who might take your side is mason, so you could ask him what he thinks.

[mike l.]

very persuasive. youre right i do suck and i did botch every street. except for the posting in the cutoff part. i think i played that part fine. im not into waiting and im not gonna beat myself up about it by making myself wait. plus i like malt shakes not milk shakes. in case you ever buy me one or something.

otherwise i think youre dead on on all the rest of it, especially the river check which was dreadful.