Fold KK pre-flop?

[durron597]

Easy easy easy easy EASY call. I think most good players would call with AA here, and not raise allin, because they want you to consider playing and still be able to fold on a flop you don't like (on party you can live with 700 ish cips). I put the BB on KK/QQ/maybe AK.

Anyway, my philosophy with KK and multiple people allin is that the more of them there are, the likelier they all have aces and this making it likelier for you to have the best hand. I call here without even thinking about it.

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy easy easy easy EASY call. I think most good players would call with AA here, and not raise allin, because they want you to consider playing and still be able to fold on a flop you don't like (on party you can live with 700 ish cips). I put the BB on KK/QQ/maybe AK.

Anyway, my philosophy with KK and multiple people allin is that the more of them there are, the likelier they all have aces and this making it likelier for you to have the best hand. I call here without even thinking about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Easy call). I agree with you.

(Most good players would just call here). I must be a terrible player, because I definitely push here.

Still be able to fold on a flop you don't like Please tell me I misunderstand this and you don't mean that the reason you just call is because you, holding AA want to have the option to fold if you don't like the flop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

I that is what you mean, I don't know if I feel most like laughing or crying [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

William

[serling]

Hi Irishboy --

Early in an SnG, I'm always calling with KK.

And in fact, I had a similar hand over the weekend with KK and a 50+5.

I raised 3x, it's raised all-in, then another all-in. I called without hesitation. Their hands: AA and 10-10.

The board mocked us with an A and a K. While in the end giving 10-10 a one-card flush for the win.

How fun is poker!

serling

[fyodor]

I don't even take my own advice. This from a $22 Tournament today:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter

BB (t2030)
UTG (t945)
MP (t2510)
Hypocrite (t2140)
SB (t375)

Preflop: Hypocrite is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t945 (All-In), MP calls t945, Hypocrite raises to t2140 (All-In), <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls t1195.

Flop: (t5525) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t5525) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t5525) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t5525

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG shows Ks Ah (one pair, tens).
MP shows Ac Qs (one pair, tens).
Hypocrite shows Kh Kd (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: Hypocrite wins t5525. </font>

[stupidsucker]

Is your screen name really Hypocrite?

If it is... the irony of the post makes me laugh a little.

If it isnt.. Good job.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't run the figures at twodimes and then say "I am right".

If I knew what my opponents had everytime and could run twodimes, I would be a millionaire in no time.
This is a preflop situation and you must make a qualified guess.

This is s very common mistake in this forum, arguing with the help of twodimes AFTER you know what tour opponent holds.
Makes absolutely no sense and you are only deceiving yourself.

William

[/ QUOTE ]

William,

Did you even read my post, or did you just see the twodimes sim and go on blabbering about your crystal ball?

Here...let me post the relevant part again:

However, if you can narrow the BB's holdings to exactly AA/KK (which is what I would consider possible holdings for a solid player's all in CALL of two players with a solid UTG raiser still left to act) then it's a pretty easy laydown, really.
The BB would be six times more likely to have AA then KK.
If you think he would call with QQ, then it's close.
6 ways to have QQ, one way to have KK, six ways to have AA. Given the fact that it's not impossible for one of the all ins to also have AA, i think this is still a clear fold.
------------------------------------------------------------


If you want to argue the range of hands that a solid player will CALL with after two all-ins and a solid UTG raiser still left to act, then I'm all ears. But until you tell me what, exactly, you bothered to put the BB on, you are arguing from a pretty weak premise.
I'm not saying you should lay down KK because I'm scared of busting out, or I'm scared of an ace or some underpairs drawing out on me. I'm saying that folding is better than pushing exactly because I think that there is a very, very good chance that one of these players (specifically the BB) has AA/KK.
If they do, it's better for me to fold. It's really that simple.
But since you have yet to take the time to put the BB (or the other players for that matter) on a hand or range of hands (except saying "oh, I see all ins with all sorts of crap in SnGs"), you really have an argument based in something other than math.

I respect your play, but don't let your ego get in the way of this one. Convince me that the solid BB could make this call with something other than AA-QQ and you may have an argument.

-SossMan

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, there's probably at least one A at the hands of MP2 and SB, which reduces the chance of AA in the hands of BB.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is fine and dandy if you are talking before the BB acts. But once he CALLS (and I can't stress that enough..he had zero folding equity) two all in players, the chances of him having AA increase significantly.

[William]

I'll make it short:

From experience at the sng tables, I know that these kind of raises/reraises are made with practically any PP and hands as weak as KQ or even KJ.

Add the fact that in my opinion the original poster (no offence intended) is not a very good player and probably his opinion of a good solid player differs from mine and not only the call becomes easy but it is a sin to fold a KK hand.

So the range of hands the other players could have is much wider that what you assumed.

Now, we are talking sng's, wich in my opinion is THE palce where most inexperienced players/beginners play. Make that a good ring game or a late stage tournament table and I might have another opinion.

My ego has nothing to do here, I talk of experience and simple reasoning (at least my form of reasoning)

hope that what I write makes sense,
William

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
From experience at the sng tables, I know that these kind of raises/reraises are made with practically any PP and hands as weak as KQ or even KJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon..you really put BB on a hand as weak as KJ? If that is true then I'm quitting my day job and playing SnGs for the rest of my life. I find that hard to believe.
I think the key factor is that most players, no matter how bad, have to have some vague concept that calling isn't as good as raising. Therefore, the range of specifically the BB's possible hands is much narrower than you suspect. I don't think I've ever seen a third all in overcall with an UTG raiser still left to act without a very big hand (AA-QQ). And although it's less likely than the BB, it IS still possible that one of the other two all in's have AA.

I respect your opinion, since you have much more SnG experience (since I play almost exclusively MTTs), but I respectfully disagree.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

(Easy call). I agree with you.

(Most good players would just call here). I must be a terrible player, because I definitely push here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so maybe "most" is wrong. In fact, maybe calling screams AA, so you should push, and then the whole statement is wrong.

[ QUOTE ]

Still be able to fold on a flop you don't like Please tell me I misunderstand this and you don't mean that the reason you just call is because you, holding AA want to have the option to fold if you don't like the flop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

I that is what you mean, I don't know if I feel most like laughing or crying [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

William

[/ QUOTE ]

You misunderstood me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. If that is what I actually meant, than you should feel exactly as you do. I'm saying that if the guy with AA calls, then he might entice the original raiser to also call and then fold if he misses the flop (thus adding more chips to the pot that might not be there if you push).