Gay Marriage

[CollinEstes]

Personally I think the reason most Christian Americans are opposed to it is because they believe marriage to be a holy covenent not only with your spouse but also with God. While a couple of men or women getting married to each other doesn't really affect their own personal covenent of marriage it does affect how they percieve how our nation views marriage. And if our nation excepts something that they think is sin then they worry about the moral fabric of our country and how it will effect future generations. Most of these "Red State" Christians don't want their children or their children's children growing up in society that openly accepts something that that believe to be truely wrong.

I really dislike how un fairly Christians are labeled as bigots or narrow minded when they fight for something they believe in.

[RicktheRuler]

It appears that scientist are close proving homosexuality is a genetic defect--not an abnormality like left handedness (sp?) or blue eyes. Before I hear the noise from those of you that will say homosexuality has been observed in nature and therefore is natural, let me tell you now that I think you are wrong. Just becuase something appears in nature does not make it natural. "Due to a flaw in the chemical or genetic makeup of an animal (too much estrogen in males, too much testosterone in females, or genetic defects/mutations) during the developmental stages of its life, these animals can have a dimished, or even completely lose their, gender identity. when courting (a step towards mating), the animal will either court both sexes or the like sex, depending on the severity of the mutation."

So, IF homosexuality is proven to be a genetic defect, does this change the way we should think about gay marriage? If so, why?


p.s. I think for the purposes of this arguement it is unfair to assume the gay couple with adopt a child--child rerearing is not a definite for any married couple. What is wrong with two gay people loving each other, living together and sharing the joys of wedlock?

I don't know, but for some reason my gut tells me its wrong.

[CollinEstes]

I don't understand why you guys are argueing about adoption. Gay couples are already adopting children, and they don't have to be married to due so. So I don't see how that has an relevance to the debate about Gay marriage.

I mean proabably right now there is a Gay couple in Vermont getting a Chinese girl

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
I really dislike how un fairly Christians are labeled as bigots or narrow minded when they fight for something they believe in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it can be difficult for people that do not have religion in there life--such as myself and it seem many other 2+2ers--to understand the other side of an argument when the opposition also believes in flying children with wings and devils with pitch forks that live for eternity underground near a lake of fire. Don't forget about the talking bushes, parting of the sea, water to wine, etc...

But seriously, if someone believes that X is against the will of their God, how are you supposed to argue with them?

[CollinEstes]

But it is the same. They believe that gay marriage is wrong. You believe gay marriage is fine or right. They have just as much a right to have that opinion as you do. Just becuase they formulate their opinion on a subject from religion and you forumlate your opinion from 21st century American culture doesn't make either opinion carry less weight.

As a American I have the right to form my opinions in whichever manner I want just as you do. But to expect Christians not to use what they believe in to forumlate a stance on an issue is not fair. It would be like expecting you not to use anything you have seen on television or learned in school. God and religion is a much a part of their thought process as anything else.

[TomCollins]

Government needs to get out of the marriage business completely!

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I think the reason most Christian Americans are opposed to it is because they believe marriage to be a holy covenent not only with your spouse but also with God. While a couple of men or women getting married to each other doesn't really affect their own personal covenent of marriage it does affect how they percieve how our nation views marriage. And if our nation excepts something that they think is sin then they worry about the moral fabric of our country and how it will effect future generations. Most of these "Red State" Christians don't want their children or their children's children growing up in society that openly accepts something that that believe to be truely wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

But by this logic, these same Christians believe that being Jewish or aethist is wrong. That not accepting Jesus as your savior is a sin. "And if our nation excepts something that they think is sin then they worry about the moral fabric of our country and how it will effect future generations."

See the problem here?

[ QUOTE ]
Most of these "Red State" Christians don't want their children or their children's children growing up in society that openly accepts something that that believe to be truely wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

And this shows again why we value the seperation of church and state. They don't have a monopoly on morality. And their religous beliefs don't dictate what is allowed in society.

[ QUOTE ]
I really dislike how un fairly Christians are labeled as bigots or narrow minded when they fight for something they believe in.

[/ QUOTE ] Why is it unfair? They are being intolerant of the beliefs of others. It is the very definition of bigotry. You said it yourself, they don't want even want a society that would openly accept something that goes against THEIR beliefs/values. That's about as intolerant as you can be.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
They believe that gay marriage is wrong. You believe gay marriage is fine or right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe we're supposed to legislate based on the morality of select religions. Laws are supposed to protect people or society.

I have yet to show a single argument about who is hurt if 2 women are allowed to marry each other.

[CollinEstes]

All of your points are valid. Personally I was only trying to shed light on the way that christians think. I am a Christian living in Texas and I don't have such a problem with gay marriage as I would some other issues.

I didn't mean to implicate that these views for the right views I was only trying to explain why I thought they feel so strongely about Gay Marriage.

Comparing how they feel about relgious freedom in America vs. Gay Marriage is not a good comparison in my opinion. Becuase this country was founded on religious freedom. (referring to your comment on how they feel about Jews or Atheists.

"Why is it unfair? They are being intolerant of the beliefs of others. It is the very definition of bigotry. You said it yourself, they don't want even want a society that would openly accept something that goes against THEIR beliefs/values. That's about as intolerant as you can be."

But they do tolerate homosexuality. But there is a difference in toleration and acceptance. They don't accept gay marriage. I think it is ok to WANT society to go along with what you believe is right. That is what you do. You believe Gay marriage is right, correct? So you think society should go along with it. It is the same dam thing.

And people for gay marriage are being intolerate of their beliefs as Christians. Why should Christian beliefs not be as acceptable as social beliefs.



EVERY AMERICAN SHOULD HAVE TO RIGHT TO FIGHT FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS RIGHT. IF THINK GAY MARRIAGE IS RIGHT, GO OUT AND FIGHT FOR IT. IF YOU THINK GAY MARRIAGE IS WRONG, GO OUT AND FIGHT AGAINST IT. YOU CAN TOLERATE OTHERS BELIEFS BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT THEM.

[kurto]

I have to brief because I'm in between meetings.

The gist is.. I don't want laws make simply because I don't like something. Laws are meant to protect people or society. The government has no business restricting marriage when that marriage is causing no harm to others.

I could care less if it offends Christians. Things offend me but I don't try to legislate it. I may find it offensive or even immoral for an 18 year old woman to marry or even just have a parasitical relationship with an ailing 70 year old millionaire... but I would never suggest making laws about it.

Christians don't have to like Gay marriage or condone it... but they being intolerant when they want to prevent others from doing it simply because THEY don't value it.

These arguments work for other forms of bigotry/intolerance. There were many people who believed (and still do) that its immoral for a black to marry a white. But the law sees no reason to ban these types of relationships.

I thought laws were supposed to protect people/society from real threats. The only proven danger or 2 dudes or 2 chicks getting married is that it will make some intolerant people angry. And that's not really so bad, is it.

I have no problems with Christians not liking it. They don't have to do it. They don't have to go to gay weddings. They be rude and snub gay married couples if they want. But when they go so far as making it so that 2 consenting loving adults can't have the relationship with each other that they want, they're acted on their intolerance and I now have a problem.

I hope that wasn't too rambling. Off to a meeting.