The battle for the teaching of Evolution in schools heats up

[HDPM]

Teaching that some people believe in creationism doesn't damage a kid. Teaching creationism as if it has any basis in fact does damage the mind because it compromises rationality.

[jaxmike]

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Teaching that some people believe in creationism doesn't damage a kid. Teaching creationism as if it has any basis in fact does damage the mind because it compromises rationality.

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Wrong again. Because the people that believe in Creationism may have slightly differnt view then strict Creationists. It's partly based on faith, partly based on a historical document. Being a believer in God, I believe that there is room for both Creationist and Evolutionists. It's highly likely that evolution is real, however, that doesn't mean that God did not create man. Either way, rationality is not the be all end all of education. There is something to be said for an ability to think irrationaly from time to time, questioning what is believed to be true is important for advances to be made. Your argument is ludacris and ignorant. It's based in a hatred of religion (at least in my opinion) and most likely Christianity at that.

[lastchance]

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Either way, rationality is not the be all end all of education. There is something to be said for an ability to think irrationaly from time to time, questioning what is believed to be true is important for advances to be made.

[/ QUOTE ] Biology is science, not philosphy. Advances are not made in science by thinking irrationally. Science has to do with strict observations and conclusions from strict observations. Creationism is not science. Evolution is.

[HDPM]

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Teaching that some people believe in creationism doesn't damage a kid. Teaching creationism as if it has any basis in fact does damage the mind because it compromises rationality.

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Wrong again. Because the people that believe in Creationism may have slightly differnt view then strict Creationists. It's partly based on faith, partly based on a historical document. Being a believer in God, I believe that there is room for both Creationist and Evolutionists. It's highly likely that evolution is real, however, that doesn't mean that God did not create man. Either way, rationality is not the be all end all of education. There is something to be said for an ability to think irrationaly from time to time, questioning what is believed to be true is important for advances to be made. Your argument is ludacris and ignorant. It's based in a hatred of religion (at least in my opinion) and most likely Christianity at that.

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If you teach that it is based on faith and irrationality it won't damage the kids. Even you admit it isn't based on fact. However, faith and irrationality has no place in education. Period.

Also, I think my argument is more Biggie than ludacris

[Zeno]

I enjoyed your response, thanks. I don't agree with everything you stated but that is to be expected.

I disagree some on the reasons why evolution is still a 'controversy' in the United States (of course no controversy really exists and is just a bugaboo, stuffed and mounted, to create a hullabaloo among the ignorant and credulous). True, some of this can be attributed to the pandering of the right-wing (Republican) agenda and some to the more far-flung fringes of the 'religious right'. All parties pander to strengthen their base constituency and garner support and votes. This does not mean I support this particular agenda of moonshine spewed out by charlatans and demagogues, but I do expect it.

Where you concentrate on more specific details and particulars of political platforms and agendas, I usually think in broader terms and with a larger brushstroke on the fundamentals of human affairs. In my opinion, some aspects of Christianity (or Christian thought and tradition) and the credulous nature of humans have much to do with this continued ballyhoo about evolution. It is much more prevalent in the Untied States than most other western countries because, as Tocqueville observed, America is a profoundly religious society. The ‘Right-Wing’ uses this to influence and herd people in a certain direction, but the present ‘Right-Wing’ or Republican party did not created this fundamental social or cultural aspect of the American Character – they simple understand that it is there and use it for their own gain and to further their broad political agenda.

As a scientist, I find this whole evolution/creationism thing rather repulsive, silly, and further evidence of the will of people to believe in anything, no matter how imbecilic, that makes them feel important, special, and/or comfortable. Irrationality has a unique appeal to many humans, especially when they use it to reinforce long held beliefs and preconceived notions.

-Zeno

[andyfox]

LOL! Bravo, Dynasty. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Cyrus]

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You are still trying to make the case for Evolutionary Theory being some kind of unproven, untested, mumbo-jumbo speculation.

[/ QUOTE ] I've never uttered any of these things.

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Oh but you did. You argued that "Evolution Theory is just that, a theory. It's not the law. We don't have to teach out children every theory". Did you or did you not argue that?

So, yes, you are trying to demote the scientific version(s) of the evolution of the Cosmos into something that has as much merit as "any other theory" out there. Well, you are patently wrong.

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Evolution is not proven 100% and shouldn't be taught that it has been. Would you agree or disagree with that statement?

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I already said that the state of human knowledge continuously evolves. At every state in our History, we are giving to our children the best of our knowledge at the time -- that's all we can do. We have a pretty solid case for the scientific version(s) of the evolution of the Cosmos in modern times, which constitutes, by far, the best of our knowledge.

Therefore, we are correct in teaching our children the best of our knowledge, i.e. Evolution, even if the set of scientific theories that comprise it, like all theories (even quantum physics), will never be said to be "100% proven" as you ridiculously put it.

And, before you cry in triumph and post some nonsense like "This is what I said all along, that it's just a theory!", please read this post again. Carefully.

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I said that I think evolution should be taught and that Creationism probably shouldn't (not in science class).

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Didn't see that! But better late than never. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] I take you on your word - that this is what you wrote and support. Good, we agree. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

...Wait! "Not in science class" ?? Then, where?? There is no religious curriculum in the United States school system last time I checked. And Creashionism is strictly a Christian proposition! (I know that there are a lot of Christian scientists who support Creashionism. But name me one scientist, who's a believer in another religion, that supports Christian Creashionism!)

[BCPVP]

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Oh but you did. You argued that "Evolution Theory is just that, a theory. It's not the law. We don't have to teach out children every theory". Did you or did you not argue that?

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No, I did not argue that. You've severly mistated what I said, because you don't seem to know why I said it. It was in a response to a poster saying, sarcastically, that maybe we should teach all the theories of every religion, or something like that. I responded that, we didn't need to teach everyones theories(meaning stuff like voodoo etc). I wasn't trashing Evolution there.

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So, yes, you are trying to demote the scientific version(s) of the evolution of the Cosmos into something that has as much merit as "any other theory" out there. Well, you are patently wrong.

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For the last [censored] time, that's absolutely NOT what I'm doing. I think I've said it enough times now, but it's failing to penetrate your thick skull. Go back to the source I posted which summed up why I said it is just a theory. You'll see the reasoning.

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Therefore, we are correct in teaching our children the best of our knowledge, i.e. Evolution, even if the set of scientific theories that comprise it, like all theories (even quantum physics), will never be said to be "100% proven" as you ridiculously put it.

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That wasn't the question I asked. Can we please answer that question? I'm not arguing whether Evolution is the best theory or not. I'm questioning whether it should be taught as if it is fact.

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Didn't see that! But better late than never.

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Hence my jab at peoples reading skills. I've said it from the get go.

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...Wait! "Not in science class" ?? Then, where?? There is no religious curriculum in the United States school system last time I checked. And Creashionism is strictly a Christian proposition! (I know that there are a lot of Christian scientists who support Creashionism. But name me one scientist, who's a believer in another religion, that supports Christian Creashionism!)

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Social studies, perhaps? Some kind of comparative religions class? Hell, in my Spanish 5 class in high school, we were assigned different religions to research and present. I'm sure that that class is not the only class to have ever done such a thing.

[jaxmike]

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Advances are not made in science by thinking irrationally.

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You clearly know nothing about science.

[jaxmike]

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If you teach that it is based on faith and irrationality it won't damage the kids. Even you admit it isn't based on fact. However, faith and irrationality has no place in education. Period.

Also, I think my argument is more Biggie than ludacris

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I can't admit that Creationism isn't based on fact. The fact is that we have historical documents and records that are pretty well supported that claim things many people believe in. To say they are not based in fact is faulty as they clearly have support historically.

Now, as to you continuing your hate speech of religion in school. You are wrong. Faith and irrationality do belong in education, at some level of course. I do not believe in forced prayer or any of that nonsense, but I also believe that the schools should not be devoid of all religion. If that is the case, then there should be no one wearing any sort of traditional religious clothing in school. Your (and liberals) idiotic hatred of religion in school is pure evil. You are taking something away from people who want it for selfish and indefensible reasons. You DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED! DEAL WITH IT!!