Saved by God? - Page 5

NotReady · #41 09-02-2005, 05:47 PM

I live in Alexandria, Louisiana, so I haven't been watching the forum as closely as usual for obvious reasons.

I mostly accept Reformed theology, aka Calvinism. This is one very large subject which I expected we might eventually get to. I think a lot of time would be saved if people would read what's available on the net concerning predestination and free will, which is what this mostly comes down to.

Man's responsibility and God's sovereignty are the two concepts involved. The Bible affirms both unequivocally. No theologian I know of has been able to reconcile these two concepts in a way that fallen human reason can accept. I begin all thinking by accepting them, by faith. We are guilty. God is omnipotent. From these two ideas all sorts of problems for reason and logic flow.

I'm not trying to duck this issue. There are very eloquent and thoughtful books and essays by people far wiser than me that explain it as far as it can be by human beings.

The greatest theologians all agree that there is mystery here that we will not solve in this lifetime, perhaps not even throughout eternity. I view it as a difficulty in understanding the exact nature of God and the soul of man, and involves difficult concepts like the will and motivation.

I believe that no one goes to heaven who deserves it, and everyone who is condemned deserves it, that God is a just and loving God and that man can in no way save himself. Man only has meaning and free will itself only makes sense if God exists.

Whatever else anyone thinks about predestination one thing is perfectly clear from Sripture. No one is forced to sin or forced to reject the Gospel. We are responsible and guilty and only God's grace stands between us and condemnation.

Ok, flame away.

spaminator101 · #42 09-02-2005, 05:57 PM

I ain't flaming.
This is exactly what I beleive.

#43 09-02-2005, 06:04 PM

NotReady, First, I hope that all those hurricane issues around you get fixed or solved as fast as humanly possible. I'll even welcome some divine intervention if I only I thought it ever occured. I'm not trying to be a smartass. Seriously, I hope things improve there quickly.

Thanks for trying to explain things. There is one great point I think you make. Whatever it is that you believe in can not really be fully understood by humans. I agree. I am a human and I admit, I just don't understand it. So even though I think I might be banging my head against a brick wall, I'm also going to throw my next post back to Spaminator101 to see if he can elaborate.

So no flames from me. Just a simple "I don't get it."

#44 09-02-2005, 06:15 PM

Spamintor101, let me rephrase my question. Assume I have been predetermined to be saved. Now assume that even though I have this "saved" status that is known by god, I decide to rape and pillage and nothing else for the rest of my days until I die of old age. I will still be saved, correct? This is all consistent with your beliefs, correct? Ok, so that was just question #1.

Here's question #2 - If yes is your answer to question #1, then why should I ever bother spending my time spreading the word of Jesus to any other human. Obviously, this has no bearing whatsoever on improving my chances on being saved or the other humans chances of being saved themselves as this is already set in stone. Is there some other reason I should do this according to you? I could see why I shouldn't rape and pillage as this is simply inconsiderate to my victims, but if I just want to watch MTV all day and skip the door to door knocking about Jesus, is this a cool decision according to you?

I look forward to your replies. Seriously, it's interesting for me to see how you think about these things even if we never end up agreeing on them at the end of the day.

NotReady · #45 09-02-2005, 06:16 PM

Thanks for your concern. Knowing this could happen and seeing it are two very different things.

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Just a simple "I don't get it."

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Don't feel alone. No one does that has been able to explain it. Perhaps why salvation is by faith, not intellect or works.

spaminator101 · #46 09-02-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Assume I have been predetermined to be saved. Now assume that even though I have this "saved" status that is known by god, I decide to rape and pillage and nothing else for the rest of my days until I die of old age. I will still be saved, correct? This is all consistent with your beliefs, correct? Ok, so that was just question #1.

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all,
if you are predestined by God the you would accept him as your savior at some point in your life.

So if you are by the standards set above, truly saved then my answer is yes. However based upon your question my answer is no.

#47 09-02-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Spamintor101, let me rephrase my question. Assume I have been predetermined to be saved. Now assume that even though I have this "saved" status that is known by god, I decide to rape and pillage and nothing else for the rest of my days until I die of old age. I will still be saved, correct? This is all consistent with your beliefs, correct? Ok, so that was just question #1.

[/ QUOTE ]If are one of the "saved" you will come around before it is too late. That's your destiny...

#48 09-02-2005, 06:44 PM

Ok, I think your position is more clear to me now. But I do have free will, right? It is just that in some sort of thing that I can only best describe as a Sci-Fi movie type twisty plot (I'm not trying to be condescending here I'm just trying to most accurately describe something that I don't understand and admit that I don't think I'll ever get on board with) this free will of mine will enable me to "choose" god as my savior, but this choice will have already been somehow known by god because if it hadn't been known I would have never been save-eligible and therefore "saved" before I was even born in the the first place. Does this capture it fairly accurately?

Not Ready and Spaninator101 can reply if possible in case you differ for some reason. But it seems like you two are on the same page with this stuff.

spaminator101 · #49 09-02-2005, 06:55 PM

Yes, you do have free will.
No, you do not choose God, He chose you. Your free will is not completely free.

God does not just know you will choose Him he decided that you would choose Him.

NotReady · #50 09-02-2005, 06:58 PM

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this free will of mine will enable me to "choose" god as my savior

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Your will is free in the sense that you are not forced by anything outside yourself. When you choose chocolate over vanilla it is because you want chocolate. No one forces you. Concerning salavation, no one wants God by their nature. You are free to choose Him, but you won't without His grace. So you freely reject Him because you don't want Him. When He gives you the free gift of faith, through grace, you choose Him because you want to, not because you are forced.