God does love everybody

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Whereas a differing interpretation, the Calvinist one, means that men are asked to believe the preposterous notion that God created certain men for the sole purpose of damning them,


[/ QUOTE ]

Show me where Calvin said this.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

it sure seems that you did a nearly perfect job of backing Not Ready into an inescapable corner


[/ QUOTE ]

Please define the corner into which you think I'm backed.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Fortunately I stand on the shoulders of theological giants who stand themselves on the solid foundation of the true church and true doctrine,


[/ QUOTE ]

Midgets like Augustine and Aquinas?

[spaminator101]

These men weren't created for the sole purpose of damning them. They all had a purpose. I know youve heard this a million times. But really think about it. Refering back to your question im my post about predestination YOu mentioned the Indians. Well think about the impact it would have had if they were Christians. There probably would have been less fights with new settlers. Many things would have been different and the way it turned out is obviously the best way because thats the way God did it.

[David Sklansky]

"Please define the corner into which you think I'm backed."

You are not backed into any corner if BluffThis's statement that Calvin claimed something whose logical implications are that some people were created merely to be damned is wrong. (When you said "Show me where Calvin said this", I hope you didn't mean that if he didn't use those exact words, the implications should be disregarded..)

Anyway it probably isn't appropriate I referee this debate since I am at least 99.99% sure that Jesus was just a man.

[David Sklansky]

"These men weren't created for the sole purpose of damning them. They all had a purpose"

True. BluffThis shouldn't have used the words "sole purpose." So why not treat those guys similar to animals? No heaven. But no hell either.

[spaminator101]

[ QUOTE ]
So why not treat those guys similar to animals? No heaven. But no hell either.

[/ QUOTE ]

That David is a very good question. I have no idea why God didn't do this. My only explanation is that we cannot comprehend the mind of God.

[BluffTHIS!]

From The Secret Providence of God by John Calvin:

"He doth not make wills evil, but useth the wills of men already evil as He pleaseth; nor can He, of Himself, will anything that is evil." " Just in this same manner (continues Augustine) does the Scripture, if diligently considered, shew that not only the good wills of men, which God Himself has made good out of evil wills, but also the wills which He has made good by His grace are directed by Him to good actions and to the attainment of eternal life; and, moreover, that those wills of men which preserve the good order of things in the world, from age to age, as kings, and princes, and rulers, etc., are so under the power of God, that He inclines them whithersoever He will, either to confer kindnesses on these, or to inflict punishments on those, according to His will and pleasure."

In this passage Calvin is discussing some of St. Augustine's writings and quoting from him. By the first sentence alone you might think he meant that God does not in fact preordain some to damnation. However, you have to understand all the aspects of Calvinst TULIP doctrine together. The T, total depravity, means that all men are created evil and damned and then God chooses only some of those to be good and thus be saved, while leaving the others in the state in which they were born, which is the U in TULIP of unconditional election.

That the above is the correct interpretation of Calvin is shown by the following statement of the demonmination that is the prime inheritor of his theology, the presbyterian church:

""God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass ... By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished." (The Confession of Faith of the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A., from chapter 111, entitled "Of God's Eternal Decree")"

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
These men weren't created for the sole purpose of damning them. They all had a purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will change my statement to that they were created, foreordained to damnation without ever having the possibility of being saved. If you want to say that is the act of a rational God, whether you attribute other purposes to Him creating such men, then you are grasping at straws.

[spaminator101]

My response still applies.