Play poker --> Bad person?

[mosdef]

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When I win I don't feel like I took advantage of anyone. And when I have a losing session, even against an obviously superior opponent, I don't feel like I was taken advantage of. I just got outplayed.

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what about the times you lose to an obvioulsy "inferior" player? many, many people on these boards follow up those sessions with violent emotional outbursts.

"I CAN'T BELIEVE THESE FISH!! WHAT A MORON!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!"

I still contend that the greatest potential social pitfall in poker is the culture of superiority among the long-term winners. the attitude of "deserving" to win because your opponent is a "moron/fish/donkey" can have serious effects on your normal life. if you go through life with a feeling or entitlement, you are doomed to unhappiness and bitterness forever. every success has no meaning - you deserved to be successful. every failure is devastating - you didn't deserve to fail! life is unfair!

[revots33]

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if you go through life with a feeling or entitlement, you are doomed to unhappiness and bitterness forever. every success has no meaning - you deserved to be successful. every failure is devastating - you didn't deserve to fail! life is unfair!


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I agree with this, but the feeling of entitlement you speak about is hardly unique to poker players. Lots of people go through life thinking the world owes them a living - and they've never picked up a deck of cards in their life.

Most good players realize that poker is a long-term game and that the best player doesn't always win in a given session. The ones who berate their opponents like you describe are probably either not very good players, or else they have a feeling of entitlement that existed long before they took up poker.

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If you are considering money as the only measure of winning and losing, then both poker and business are made up strictly of winners and losers (with the house aka the government being the only consistent winner).

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I disagree with your statement on a number of levels.
In poker, I would say that money is the only measure of winning and losing. It is the core of the game. Sure a few player might gamble just for the entertainment but still, the way to differ a winner from a looser in poker is by money and that’s actually not exactly the case in business. Even more, a win in poker is always someone else’s loss, and that’s not the case in business. To add one more point, in business you also learn to cooperate with other players, to work together. In poker, I think that’s considered cheating.
I could also make a couple of remarks on your comparison between the government and the house but that would probably only take us into a never ending political discussion. --Konsum

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Success in poker comes from making more correct decisions than your opponents. You are not necessarily taking advantage of anyone. I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen - but the point of the game is to minimize mistakes and make correct decisions. --revots33

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revots33 practically answered this for me. IF you measure success ONLY in terms of $$, then yes, you being a winner does make someone else (or a group of ppl) a loser. Every financial transaction in business, when measured solely in terms of immediate $$, results in a winner and a loser. Of course businesspersons (and poker players) will be more successful in the long run when leaving behind the importance of immediate success. When I lose a pot to a player that managed to hit a two-outer on me, I may be considered a "loser" on that particular hand, but I'm a winner in the long run because I am more likely to win when I put myself in those situations. This is because I measure my success in terms of good decisions, not only in terms of money.

Hope that was clear...

As to my comparison of the house to the government, I meant it only in terms of them taxing your earnings.

revots is all about stealing my answers today! I feel that many long-LONG-term winners would understand that they profit from other players' mistakes, not from winning hands. The money takes care of itself once you start making the right decisions and putting in some serious hours. But I still know a lot of players that DO win that complain everytime a "fish" takes a pot from them. I do think this is unhealthly, both in poker and otherwise. I see these individuals as people who need to blame their losses on something... i.e. "fish".

[mosdef]

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if you go through life with a feeling or entitlement, you are doomed to unhappiness and bitterness forever. every success has no meaning - you deserved to be successful. every failure is devastating - you didn't deserve to fail! life is unfair!


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I agree with this, but the feeling of entitlement you speak about is hardly unique to poker players. Lots of people go through life thinking the world owes them a living - and they've never picked up a deck of cards in their life.

Most good players realize that poker is a long-term game and that the best player doesn't always win in a given session. The ones who berate their opponents like you describe are probably either not very good players, or else they have a feeling of entitlement that existed long before they took up poker.

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absolutely. but i think that the culture of entitlement and superiority can really exacerbate a pre-existing sense of entitlement. i especially imagine this to be the case with bitter, jaded college kids who thought they were brilliant and liked that feeling, got to college and found out they were middle of the pack, then discovered the wonderful world of poker, where they are awesome geniuses (especially if they catch some nice cards when they start out) and the world is full of fish and donkeys to beat up on. the way it SHOULD be, from their perspective. then they start to lose a few sessions here and there. and all hell breaks lose in their minds.

i didn't mean to suggest that saints who start playing poker suddenly become demons. but i think it's safe to say that the culture CAN have negative impacts on a player's psyche.

[jjacky]

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poker is entertainment and many people pay for it. that means playing poker produces a good like a cinema, theater etc. if someone visits a show, he does basically the same as a loser who plays poker: he pays for his entertainment. in a strictly monetarian view, economy is a sero sum game too (excluding the activity of the central bank). someone produces a good and someone else pays to get it.

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I could off course be wrong but I find that the thought about people who like to play and loose money for fun a bit to spread throu this forum. Ritch people in livegames, yes maby. But do you honestly belive that there is more than a never so small number, that actually sit online on low limit tables (where I guess most of us play) because they think it's a fun way to spend money?

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yes, i honestly believe many people play poker (including small stakes online) for fun, aware of the fact that they are losing players on average.
2 points to back this up:
1) many people play black jack or even roulette online which is obviously -EV and far less interesting than poker.
2) i know people who are losing money online for fun (and i did so live when i learned the game).

I don't think that a large number of poker players play specifically to lose money. There is entertainment provided in live games and online games. But I think that the big appeal to poker is to those people (read: gamblers) who want to get lucky and make money. They see poker strictly as a game of luck, and the thrill of maybe being able to win is their entertainment. Include frequent viewers of TV poker in this category.

[jjacky]

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I don't think that a large number of poker players play specifically to lose money. There is entertainment provided in live games and online games. But I think that the big appeal to poker is to those people (read: gamblers) who want to get lucky and make money. They see poker strictly as a game of luck, and the thrill of maybe being able to win is their entertainment. Include frequent viewers of TV poker in this category.

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yes, hardly anybody will play poker to lose money, but many people have fun despite losing money.
and the possibility to win money (as a losing player on average) attracts many people but that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't enjoy themselves, of course.

[sammy_g]

I haven't read through all the responses, but I will say this:

Poker tends to expose people's character rather than shape it.

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I haven't read through all the responses, but I will say this:

Poker tends to expose people's character rather than shape it.

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I agree with this. Playing poker has made me more analytic in other walks of life, but I've always been analytic.