Bellhorn. - Page 5

Toro · #41 08-21-2005, 08:44 AM

This reply is to all of you. The reason I don't like these stat arguments is that you guys are selective about them. Not one of you mention the one stat that drives Sox fans up a wall with this guy. Strikeouts.

In the only three years of his entire MLB career that he saw significant playing time he was a strikeout king. In 2002 he played 146 games and KOed 144 times, 2004, 138 games and 177 ko's and this year 85 games and 109 ko's.

The guy averages over a strikeout a game. Awful.

And of course no mentions his defense. To which you'll respond he handles all the routine plays and is good at turning the DP. But he has no range, no range whatsoever.

Jack of Arcades · #42 08-21-2005, 09:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This reply is to all of you. The reason I don't like these stat arguments is that you guys are selective about them. Not one of you mention the one stat that drives Sox fans up a wall with this guy. Strikeouts.

In the only three years of his entire MLB career that he saw significant playing time he was a strikeout king. In 2002 he played 146 games and KOed 144 times, 2004, 138 games and 177 ko's and this year 85 games and 109 ko's.

The guy averages over a strikeout a game. Awful.

And of course no mentions his defense. To which you'll respond he handles all the routine plays and is good at turning the DP. But he has no range, no range whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're selective about stats that actually matter. Strikeouts, on average, aren't all that much worse than regular outs. I'll be generous and say they're worth .03 runs less than a regular out. That means, if you replace all of Bellhorn's K's with balls in play, 177x.03 = 5.31 runs. Of course, last year, Alfonso Soriano struck out 121 times and Jeff Kent struck out 96 times. This year, Marcus Giles has already struck out 86 times. The best hitting players at every position usually strike out a lot.

Defense is pretty damned hard to measure, of course, but UZR (the St. Louis Cardinal's propietary system) has Bellhorn rated as 5 runs below average last year...

Toro · #43 08-21-2005, 09:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
UZR (the St. Louis Cardinal's propietary system) has Bellhorn rated as 5 runs below average last year...

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Don't know the system. Is that bad?

Jack of Arcades · #44 08-21-2005, 09:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UZR (the St. Louis Cardinal's propietary system) has Bellhorn rated as 5 runs below average last year...

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Don't know the system. Is that bad?

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It's not really all that bad. Compare it to his batting runs, which were 19 runs above average... that puts him at about 2 wins above the average 2B.

Anyway, UZR is based on play by play data and is pretty similar to the systems used by the Dodgers and the A's.

Toro · #45 08-21-2005, 10:00 AM

Well I think we beat it to death so I'll leave it at this. I'm glad he's gone because I like the new guy much better. I'm glad Bellhorn got a ring last year and if I were to see him in a bar, I'd buy him a drink.

sublime · #46 08-21-2005, 12:57 PM

Not one of you mention the one stat that drives Sox fans up a wall with this guy. Strikeouts.

sox fans who dont bother investigating the fact that the K is just like any other out.

Triumph36 · #47 08-21-2005, 01:09 PM

I'd hate to have Bellhorn on my team. Yes, his OPS was high for second basemen. Yes, he walks a lot. But his constant striking out would drive me nuts as a fan - would I want to see him up with runners in scoring position? Of course not - he has a low BA and strikes out a lot.

sublime · #48 08-21-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd hate to have Bellhorn on my team. Yes, his OPS was high for second basemen. Yes, he walks a lot. But his constant striking out would drive me nuts as a fan - would I want to see him up with runners in scoring position? Of course not - he has a low BA and strikes out a lot.

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fortunatly im sure there are GM's in the game who think like this.

sublime · #49 08-21-2005, 05:41 PM

I'm glad he's gone because I like the new guy much better.

well yeah. one was performing at a suboptimal level, and the other above his head. have you noticed nobody has said bellhorn should not have been DFA? the debate is you saying he was 'average' in 2004 for a 2B when the evidence is overwhelmingly showing otherwise.

irishpint · #50 08-21-2005, 08:27 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Not one of you mention the one stat that drives Sox fans up a wall with this guy. Strikeouts.

sox fans who dont bother investigating the fact that the K is just like any other out.

[/ QUOTE ]

how is a K like any other out? does it ever advance the runner from second to third? does it ever get the runner home from third? does it give the fielders a chance to make an error? nope. sox fans aren't too bright i guess.