Deep stack theory

[Shaun]

I think limping with KK and AA is a good idea in early position. Your value from these hands will come from trapping and getting a sizeable chunk in pre-flop, and even here you will likely win a smallish pot. Of course sometimes you can open raise and still accomplish this.

In general, like Fsuplayer said, big pairs aren't going to be the hands you break people with (unless you have AA against KK). You need to flop sets, make flushes and straights, and be the one gunning for the big pair hands with smaller pairs and suited connectors. Big stacks mean you can chase gutshots and if you ever hit one man will you get paid! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]


Many people advise against playing the smallest pairs in a very deep stack game, because set over set will be hard to get away from and be very very expensive. I don't think I agree with this as long as you have a good read on your opponents, but you might keep it in mind when you flop a set of twos.

Though I've never played in a game with that much money, I have played in many games with stacks anywhere from 300-700 times the big blind. It is a lot of fun, and it really does give a better player an advantage. You'll be able to "gamble" a little bit with a portion of your stack, in order to set them up for later hands. Raise with suited connectors/pocket pairs in late position. Build pots! You can afford to "waste" a few bucks pre-flop to juice the pot when you've got a lot of chips behind you. Straddling is fun.

Only play unsuited big cards in late position, and play them for big flops, not top pair. You might want to fold AKos for substantial pre-flop raises if your opponents are fairly good. If they are too loose then go ahead and play it.

Even though people talk about how bad these hands are, I'd still play suited big cards like KJ for smallish raises and in position raise with them sometimes. You are playing to make a nut hand, not top pair, so to me these hands aren't trouble hands at all with a big stack. You aren't going to fling three grand into the pot with KJ and only the top pair. Also be careful about non-nut flushes unless you are heads-up.

Writing this makes me want to play in a game with more than 50bb stacks.

Good luck

[Tommy Angelo]

"I'd rather have 64s on the button than AA UTG......"

I've been in no-limit games where the combo of opponents, blinds, and stack sizes made the above statement true for me as well.


Tommy

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
"I'd rather have 64s on the button than AA UTG......"

I've been in no-limit games where the combo of opponents, blinds, and stack sizes made the above statement true for me as well.



[/ QUOTE ]

In a very loose aggressive PL and NL game I play in sometimes, this is very true. The implied odds and pot equity should I smack the board is just amazing.

[ML4L]

Hey Bruiser,

[ QUOTE ]
"6) Be very cognizant of how much your opponents have in front of them so that you can devise ways to put them to tough decisions. Try to put in bets and raises where their only choice is to fold or make a reraise that will only be called if they are beat. In other words, force them to make a commitment decision while leaving yourself flexibility. "

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise or Fold...

There is no hand that Matt can call with after I reraise. He either has to commit all of his chips or fold. So, I am risking $500 with my reraise (because I have the option of folding if he goes all-in), while he has to risk +/- $1300 if he wishes to continue with the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
"The point that I was making is that it is most important to have outs when bluffing ALL-IN. If the stacks are sufficiently deep, when your opponent bets and you raise, your opponent will either fold or reraise you"

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that I can make the same reraise if I have JJ and think that Matt is just trying to put a move on me. It doesn't matter that I have no "outs" if Matt reraises; I'm folding anyway. Now, let's say I have Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hopefully everyone can see how TERRIBLE a semi-bluff by me would have been there. If Matt goes all-in (presumably with a set), I either have to call with my draw after having WRECKED my implied odds or have to fold a hand that could have won a sizeable pot if played differently (whether to call or fold would be clear if I did the math, but I don't feel like it...).

I should have clarified those points yesterday; thanks for the reply...

ML4L

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to think NLHE was all about "raising or folding" but I've been just calling more frequently (sometimes I get into the habit of calling too much and playing passively) but still, calling seems like an okay plan a lot of the time to me. So that's where I'm coming from when I ask for an example of a raise or fold situation...

[/ QUOTE ]

(this post references the link in my other reply)

Agreed; the "raise or fold" concept is tossed around in such a way that it gives calling a bad name. Calling is a viable option in a ton of situations. But, here's when you don't want to call. Let's say instead of reraising Matt after he check-raises, I just call. That, in some regard, puts me on the defensive. On the turn, a good player such as Matt is probably going to fire another barrel at me NO MATTER WHAT COMES, and I'm just going to end up folding on the turn. So, my call simply wasted money, because I'm not going to gain any information on the turn.

On the other hand, if I like my hand enough that I won't fold the turn if he bets, why not reraise the flop? That way, I don't risk a cheap card beating me and I don't risk being run over automatically (an all-in bluff by Matt would have been dangerous because I have given him every reason to believe that I would call).

Hopefully that makes some sense...

ML4L

[ML4L]

Hey Lawrence,

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that if a player tried to push a bluff with a draw and gets re-raised for a significant amount then the player will likely be forced to fold. But the odd times that the opponent will just call them down, they will at least have a shot on the turn or river to make their hand and with position, even take a free card provided they know their semi-bluff attempt is on the verge of failing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 100% true. I tried to phrase my reply to you in a way that acknowledged this, because some people don't know a raise or fold situation when they see one... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] It's always better to have outs, just in case.

The point that I wanted to make is that if the bet is not all-in, don't be afraid to make a bluff with a hand that has "no outs" if called. Ciaffone talked about this point in his PL/NL poker book...

ML4L

[Matt Flynn]

if the theoretical me is going to fire on the turn no matter what (or even if it's likely), raising just blocks me from bluffing more and is bad. if you plan to lay down if called or re-reraised, then reraising is the better option.

matt

[ML4L]

Yeah, what I meant was that a bad thought process would be something along the lines of "I'll call the check-raise to see what he does on the turn. If he bets, then I'll just fold then." There is clearly nothing wrong with calling with the intent to trap someone into bluffing again, or calling in a situation where the turn action would give you more information. In that particular hand, I think there is a very good chance that, had I not reraised the flop, you would have read me as not liking my hand enough to commit to it, and thus pushed me off of it on the turn/river (and you likely would have succeeded had I flat-called and you tried).

Plays like this are most reliable against a good player, not a chip-spewing yahoo who doesn't know when to abandon ship...

ML4L

[BadVoodooX]

I have nowhere near the degree of expertise of a Tommy Angelo or Matt Flynn but I've been quite successful in my deepstack NL play online at 3/6 & 5/10 after moving up from 2/4 shorter stacked play so I'll offer up what I’ve learned from my recent experience.

Take some time and get used to this format for a few sessions and be tight/aggressive. This is a big step up so be patient with the learning curve. If you don’t have the bankroll to do this, then don’t because you will likely not break even at first, this is a considerable jump up in skill.

You have to be aggressive or the regulars will take pots away from you. Raise hard when you have your raising hands or good strong semibluffs with position. Make people wary that you will push hard with your good hands early in the hand to minimize their tricky play with marginal hands; letting people draw cheaply to their overcard/inside straight draws or hitting that oddball two pair is going to hurt you much more.

Work on improving your reading skills, you will need them more than in short stack NL where the math dictates the correct play. You will have to occassionally make a big laydown with hands like sets or straights that you would never dream of laying down with shorter stacks. Take your time and think the hand through, there is much more at stake. Did the play make sense for your opponent if the implied/reverse implied odds were right, especially if your play telegraphed a hand that would be hard to get away from? Pot odds are far less important here since people are aiming for your whole stack.

Predictable/tight play can get you in serious jeopardy in a big pot against loose/tricky players who will play those 10/7 and 3/5 hands. If you are playing tight which I strongly recommend initially, you are shooting for small/medium sized pots, especially with top pair & good kicker. If you have the nut straight or flush on the turn, push it all in, you don’t want to be borderline pot committed with your nut flush when the board pairs on the river.

Limp in from late position with drawing hands more than in short stack play, especially with Ax suited hands and suited connectors or suited 1 gapers but be more wary than you are used to on flush draws with those hands since that open-ended straight flush draw which is fabulous to go all in with on the flop in short stack is a deathtrap in deep stack since if you get called in deep stack you are likely against a made hand or the higher flush draw and a pair which has you slaughtered and there won’t be enough in the pot to make your draw +EV. Avoid straight and flush draws that aren’t to the nuts much, much more than at short stack.

I think the one thing from Ciaffone & Rueben that is the most important thing for a newer player at deep stack NL play it is this: Be a raiser, if you are calling it’s because you’ve trapped your opponent not vice versa.

Good luck and welcome to real poker.

[beckham9]

is this really true? or just saying that?

would not raising much more with that hand UTG not fix that problem? making a very large raise of 15 X BB you could then put them on a more limited range of hands. also i think limping and waiting for a reraise would be the best play UTG, if noone raises and you dont trip with your aces play them very cautiously.


B9