KK early in Super Monday

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Your way of playing is easy. You raise to 150, if some fish calls and flops a set, well then he's a fish and you can write one that off because you made the correct play preflop and he made a clear mistake.

However, your way is not the best. You should be concerned with things like raising to a standard opening to protect the value of your hands. You want worse hands to call like lower pairs, middle pairs, and AJ AQ KT blah blah etc. So, occasionally some fish makes a preflop mistake and you bone him from behind and take his stack. But most of the time you are playing so that players around you, even the most retarded ones in the world, can play correctly.

Sure, I allow smaller pairs to correctly call and play the flop, and if I had my choice I'd want hands that have lots of implied odds like a low pair, I'd choose for them to fold.

But the idea is that if I raise enough with all sorts of hands, people are going to be playing very poorly if they call with lower pairs trying to stack me off with a set, because most of the time I'll have a hand that can't double them up. This, in turn, allows me to get paid off more when people realize that I am active, and when I standard raise with KK or whatever I'll get more action from hands that can double me up.

Also, JJ is saying he is getting away when people flop sets often. Well, I'm not. But again, all the action I get from having a disguised hand against second best hands more than makes up for the times someone flops a set on a 279 board with 2 hearts and I double them up because I didn't raise to 10bb preflop.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you underestimate the amount of action you can get early on with a bigger preflop raise. The beginning of the tourney, naturally, is the time in which the field is the weakest. You still will get calls with lower to medium pocket pairs on a bigger preflop bet, only this time you are not giving them the proper implied odds to draw to crippling you.

Moreover, a guy with a hand like 10-10 or JJ is much more likely to go bust on a ragged flop when he has called a bigger preflop raise. And thats really what it is all about early in a tourney- winning big pots and cutting your losses to small pots.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Your way of playing is easy. You raise to 150, if some fish calls and flops a set, well then he's a fish and you can write one that off because you made the correct play preflop and he made a clear mistake.

However, your way is not the best. You should be concerned with things like raising to a standard opening to protect the value of your hands. You want worse hands to call like lower pairs, middle pairs, and AJ AQ KT blah blah etc. So, occasionally some fish makes a preflop mistake and you bone him from behind and take his stack. But most of the time you are playing so that players around you, even the most retarded ones in the world, can play correctly.

Sure, I allow smaller pairs to correctly call and play the flop, and if I had my choice I'd want hands that have lots of implied odds like a low pair, I'd choose for them to fold.

But the idea is that if I raise enough with all sorts of hands, people are going to be playing very poorly if they call with lower pairs trying to stack me off with a set, because most of the time I'll have a hand that can't double them up. This, in turn, allows me to get paid off more when people realize that I am active, and when I standard raise with KK or whatever I'll get more action from hands that can double me up.

Also, JJ is saying he is getting away when people flop sets often. Well, I'm not. But again, all the action I get from having a disguised hand against second best hands more than makes up for the times someone flops a set on a 279 board with 2 hearts and I double them up because I didn't raise to 10bb preflop.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would agree that your style allows small pocket pairs to correctly play their hands by calling. And you're saying that my style allows hands like A-Q to correctly fold.

I agree completely(although as I said in my last post, I think you're underestimating just how many bad players will call 150 preflop with hands like A-Q or even worse early in a tourney). However, your mistake is one in which you'll lose the tournament. My mistake is one which would cost me winning an extra 45 chips(assuming you raise to 60, then he missed the flop, you bet, he folds- the most likely scenario here). That imo is the big difference. A tournament is about survival imho.

Particularly when you say something like "This, in turn, allows me to get paid off more when people realize that I am active" I think you are overestimating the skill level of your opponents early on in a tourney. Sure if you're raising every hand, then they are going to take note. But I don't think one or two more raises per every 50 hands like you're advocating is really going to cause the average player to pay you off more. Moreover, you're assuming that I'd never raise big with another hand.

As I was saying to someone else earlier, I think chip accumulation is vastly overrated, especially early in a tourney.

Not to toot my own horn too much, but go take a look at a few of the threads about the big tourneys I've won or gotten very far in....in almost all of them, I never had a huge stack at any time. Yes, having chips does afford you certain luxuries. However, it is not necessary at all to advance deep into a tournament.

[Jason Strasser]

We can get into a cockwaving contest, but jigga PLEASE:

[ QUOTE ]
Not to toot my own horn too much, but go take a look at a few of the threads about the big tourneys I've won or gotten very far in....in almost all of them, I never had a huge stack at any time. Yes, having chips does afford you certain luxuries. However, it is not necessary at all to advance deep into a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ludicrious lol. I'm so happy you can get far in tournaments! I'd like to also mention that some of the worst poker players in the world do well in online tournaments. But throwing some results at me is not going to convince me you know what you are talking about, because your posts here clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding of how EV works. Great, the donk goes broke when you raise to 150 in level 1 with KK, what the heck do you think he does when you make it 60? The same type of donk is often going broke here as well.

In general, I firmly disagree with you.
-Jason

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think you need to raise more preflop (t80-100).

why? don't I *want* action here?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty awful. This is saying that you are afraid of playing pots postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Raising this much could work. However, it completely reaks of a monster hand. Why make your hands stick out like that? Poker is about folding hands when you think you have the worst of it, and that is a risk you have to take when playing AA and KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

so your disagreeing with the guy who suggested i raise 5xBB and not me being confused by that. right?

[/ QUOTE ]

5bb is the largest I would ever raise with this, and I will rarely ever do that. Saying it is right to raise 100 in this situation is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

you would not raise more than 5x BB with KK? So you're inviting small pocket pairs to play against you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not realistly. Unless they are all world class players, I am sure they have quite different range of calling hands. If some of these hit, I double up.

However, I am confidenet I can outplay my opponent postflop, and fold if he hits his set. But, that's just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to get back to this because I just don't understand it. You say that theres a range of hands he could call with. Then you proceed to say that you're "confident" that you could fold if he hits his set. So if the flop comes 3-5-Q, and I would assume that both 3-3 and A-Q were hands in that range of yours, then how do you distinguish?

I'm callin BS on you being "confident" in this.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
So, occasionally some fish makes a preflop mistake and you bone him from behind and take his stack. But most of the time you are playing so that players around you, even the most retarded ones in the world, can play correctly.
-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously theres no way to prove this, but I'd be willing to bet that I double up with KK or AA playing my way just as often as you do playing yours if not moreso. You fail to realize how much more committed to a pot a person gets after calling a big preflop raise, so while you may get more callers, I will get more people committed to the hand.

About 50% of the time, I will check-raise a ragged flop, trying to have him put me on AK and bet out. Quite often, he'll be pot committed after his bet and call my raise.

I play AK, QQ, KK, and AA very similarly.

[TheTimeIsUp]

Well, obviously I am not going to win every MTT that I play in. This is no exception.

I am confident that in certain situations, I can infact fold an overpair. But, it is not easy to bust either.

I am not saying I can fold it everytime, but I try to play my overpairs delicately.


This is beside the point, however. You are assuming that if you raise 4bb, only small pairs will call you, and you will only get your chips all in if they hit a set. This is no where near the case.

Situations like these are exactly why people minraise AA or KK with <15bb left.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
We can get into a cockwaving contest, but jigga PLEASE:

[ QUOTE ]
Not to toot my own horn too much, but go take a look at a few of the threads about the big tourneys I've won or gotten very far in....in almost all of them, I never had a huge stack at any time. Yes, having chips does afford you certain luxuries. However, it is not necessary at all to advance deep into a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ludicrious lol. I'm so happy you can get far in tournaments! I'd like to also mention that some of the worst poker players in the world do well in online tournaments. But throwing some results at me is not going to convince me you know what you are talking about, because your posts here clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding of how EV works. Great, the donk goes broke when you raise to 150 in level 1 with KK, what the heck do you think he does when you make it 60? The same type of donk is often going broke here as well.

In general, I firmly disagree with you.
-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. However, the good players will call your bet with a low pocket pair and fold to mine. Which situation is better?

Edited to add: I specifically said "not to toot my own horn" because I didn't want to get into a cockwaving contest. I was merely pointing out that it is a myth that one needs a big stack to go far into a tourney. I'm not necesarilly saying that you thought that, but I do think many do, so I wanted to provide some concrete example to the contrary. Sorry if this offended you and was so "ludicrious."

[Lmn55d]

Jason, good points but there's one important thing you didn't mention. When guys call with pocket pairs they are often not playing for just set value alone. A lot of guys will not be able to dump 77 on a 236 flop. SO even if their call is correct preflop they are often going to make costly mistakes postflop that offset this. Yout want players like this in even if their preflop calls are slightly +EV from their point of view. And even if you do only look at preflop EV, you want to make a bet that would induce a mistake from their average hand in their range.

[TheTimeIsUp]

You are assuming the only way you can double up with an overpair is through a 'bad' player? This is heavily flawed.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blinds 10/20

T1070

I raise UTG1 with black KK to 55 and get called by guy with T1665 two to my left. All else fold

No reads, other than table had not been overly loose, more on tighter side.

flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet T150, and get raised T350

Pot is now 640 and I have 865 left. Whats my plan?

I am a MTT newb, so please bear with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Results?

[/ QUOTE ]

i pushed and lost to 99 [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

For the sake of the "call and push a non-scare card turn"er's, what was the turn?