Overcard challenge - Page 5

Nate tha' Great · #1 06-27-2005, 11:41 PM

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good post. it took me a little while to think of something, and I'm sure you'll still find some holes in it. you've proving a really good point here. along the same lines, you could ask for a situation when you should raise to clean up overs. I think that would be equally difficult to come up with.

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Thanks, dude. Basically I think there are three fundamental reasons why raising with overcards could be correct:

1. Because you might have the best hand, or a better hand than the player betting into you.

The raise is pretty clear when this sort of situation arises in a multiway pot. The ideal example is when a LAG bets into you on a semi-coordinated flop, and there is another player who is fairly tight left to act behind you. Still, these situations are tough to recognize in practice. Most players, even fairly aggrssive players, tend to have a medium-strength made hand when they bet into a preflop raiser. With a big hand, they'll check-raise the flop or maybe slowplay until the turn. They'll also check-raise a particularly strong draw while check-calling with weak draws or very weak made hands.

2. Because a raise gives you some folding equity.

I remember bicyclekick saying a while back that he almost never used the free card play. Part of this was because he's playing at stakes where the free card play simply doesn't work all that often (see below) but another part of it is because, those times that he did raise the flop with overs, he usually followed through with a bet on the turn in order to put pressure on his opponents to fold. In these instances, it may help you to have another big card on the board. For example, say the flop is K82 rainbow, you hold AQ with a backdoor flush draw, and an aggressive regular bets into you. You think it a bit unnatural that he's playing a king this way, so you might consider raising and betting the turn again, hoping to get him to fold something like a pair of 8's.

3. Because a raise gives you a free card.

I list this rationaile last on purpose. In practice, a free card rarely produces an effective savings of 0.50 BB. If there is even, say, a 20% chance of a 3-bet, then your savings is shaved down to 0.20 BB. This is especially likely to be the case as you move up to higher stakes and the opponents become more aggressive. It's also worth considering whether it's worth it to pay two more bets to continue, even if the chance of getting a free card is fairly high. Some weak draws might only be worth investing one more bet, or even folding straight away against certain opponents.

I don't think cleaning up outs is a sufficient justification for raising all on its own in about 99% of all cases. Usually cleaning up outs is a side benefit that accompanies one of the other rationalies for raising. For example, say that I have K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG and am bet into by one of the blinds in a four-way pot on a J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flop. Here I may raise, which could result in my winning the pot if a player has a hand like KT behind me. But I'm also raising because I may get a free card, and because I have a fair amount of equity in the hand. I may even have some folding equity if it winds up being heads up and a card like an A or maybe another J fall on the turn. It would be a good challenge for somebody to post a hand in which raising was correct purely or even mostly for cleaning-up reasons.

QTip · #2 06-27-2005, 11:58 PM

I'd like to make a couple of comments here:

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Part of this was because he's playing at stakes where the free card play simply doesn't work all that often (see below) but another part of it is because, those times that he did raise the flop with overs, he usually followed through with a bet on the turn in order to put pressure on his opponents to fold.

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I think another piece of this is that he probably rarely has more than 1 or 2 opponents left on the turn. Whereas, in SS games, it's not uncommon to have 4 people call 2 cold on the flop.

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I don't think cleaning up outs is a sufficient justification for raising all on its own in about 99% of all cases.

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Most of the time I'm thinking about overcards that are smaller than mine, which is why I previously gave the example with us having AK and the flop being T or less. I want to see the Qs and Js fold. However, this isn't really cleaning up our outs, it's just improving our chances of winning the pot.

I think I could see something like AK raising a raggy flop to fold something like bottom pair, top kicker happening with some frequency. But...I'll see if I can find a specific hand.

gaming_mouse · #3 06-28-2005, 02:03 AM

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good post. it took me a little while to think of something, and I'm sure you'll still find some holes in it. you've proving a really good point here. along the same lines, you could ask for a situation when you should raise to clean up overs. I think that would be equally difficult to come up with.

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Thanks, dude. Basically I think there are three fundamental reasons why raising with overcards could be correct:

1. Because you might have the best hand, or a better hand than the player betting into you.

The raise is pretty clear when this sort of situation arises in a multiway pot. The ideal example is when a LAG bets into you on a semi-coordinated flop, and there is another player who is fairly tight left to act behind you. Still, these situations are tough to recognize in practice. Most players, even fairly aggrssive players, tend to have a medium-strength made hand when they bet into a preflop raiser. With a big hand, they'll check-raise the flop or maybe slowplay until the turn. They'll also check-raise a particularly strong draw while check-calling with weak draws or very weak made hands.

2. Because a raise gives you some folding equity.

I remember bicyclekick saying a while back that he almost never used the free card play. Part of this was because he's playing at stakes where the free card play simply doesn't work all that often (see below) but another part of it is because, those times that he did raise the flop with overs, he usually followed through with a bet on the turn in order to put pressure on his opponents to fold. In these instances, it may help you to have another big card on the board. For example, say the flop is K82 rainbow, you hold AQ with a backdoor flush draw, and an aggressive regular bets into you. You think it a bit unnatural that he's playing a king this way, so you might consider raising and betting the turn again, hoping to get him to fold something like a pair of 8's.

3. Because a raise gives you a free card.

I list this rationaile last on purpose. In practice, a free card rarely produces an effective savings of 0.50 BB. If there is even, say, a 20% chance of a 3-bet, then your savings is shaved down to 0.20 BB. This is especially likely to be the case as you move up to higher stakes and the opponents become more aggressive. It's also worth considering whether it's worth it to pay two more bets to continue, even if the chance of getting a free card is fairly high. Some weak draws might only be worth investing one more bet, or even folding straight away against certain opponents.

I don't think cleaning up outs is a sufficient justification for raising all on its own in about 99% of all cases. Usually cleaning up outs is a side benefit that accompanies one of the other rationalies for raising. For example, say that I have K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG and am bet into by one of the blinds in a four-way pot on a J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flop. Here I may raise, which could result in my winning the pot if a player has a hand like KT behind me. But I'm also raising because I may get a free card, and because I have a fair amount of equity in the hand. I may even have some folding equity if it winds up being heads up and a card like an A or maybe another J fall on the turn. It would be a good challenge for somebody to post a hand in which raising was correct purely or even mostly for cleaning-up reasons.

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This post is fantastic.

QTip · #4 06-27-2005, 11:35 PM

4 loose limpers to you on the button with AKo, you raise, blinds fold.

Let's say the limper to your immediate right bets:

Let's talk about this, how much does it even matter if he's aggressive or passive? Really, does it even matter that much?

Now...let's say he bet into you and the flop is all cards that are either a T or under (not paired). Does is even matter how draw heavy it is (outside of the ridiculous).

But...I mean, in this situation, what's the vast difference among these flops?

1. T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

2. T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

3. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

4. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I really believe I'm raising any flop like these.

QTip · #5 06-28-2005, 12:11 AM

I'm reviewing the overcard and protecting hand sections of SSHE right now as a result of this post. I had posed some rhetorical questions in my first response, and I want to just quote something from SSHE page 232.

2 limpers, sb completes, you raise with AQs and everyone calls. The sb bets...

"An aggressive player who bets a smoewhat coordinated flop could have a wide range of weak hands. A timide player who bets a ragged flop cannot."

So...I do understand how the player and board can make a difference. However, I also think there's a pretty big difference in the position of the players as well. For example, I think if we're the bb and we raise PF, the sb betting into us on the flop is something more to consider than being the button, having raised PF, and have the CO bet into us after everyone has checked to him. This is just something I feel, and I'm trying to understand why I feel that way. I guess I'm coming up with a couple things:

1. I have the opportunity to at least try to get a free card.

2. I think a player first to act in a field betting the flop is a bit more serious than late position betting after a bunch of weak checks.

QTip · #6 06-28-2005, 12:23 AM

It's interesting to note that in all the hands that Ciaffone has in his overcards section of Middle Limit Holdem Poker, there is no example where you raise with overcards on the flop after being bet into....perhaps this is what the OP is talking about [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, there is an intersting section in "Improve Your Poker" on "Raising and Missing". I want to make a separate post on this.

I think it's great we're reviewing overcard play, because I think a lot of us (myself include) do a fair amount of spewing in our games with UI overcards.

private joker · #7 06-28-2005, 01:25 AM

Here's a textbook case:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

SlantNGo · #8 07-07-2005, 01:15 PM

Why is this textbook?

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a textbook case:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

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private joker · #9 07-07-2005, 03:15 PM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
Why is this textbook?

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
Here's a textbook case:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

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Why wouldn't it be? I have overcards and a backdoor flush draw, and moreover only 5 cards in the deck hit that flop. I have position on the bettor directly to my right, and I can take a free card on the turn if it's 3-way and checked to me, which it was. I hit my flush on the river and was able to raise a bettor because I showed weakness on the turn.

How are you playing this hand and why?

SlantNGo · #10 07-07-2005, 09:58 PM

I would have played it the same but I never knew why... I'm a micro guy, and I got my ass handed to me at 1/2 by not knowing how to play well in HU postflop situations. Thanks for the explanation!

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How are you playing this hand and why?

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